Becoming The Teacher You Wish You Had

Episode Transcript:

Cindy Leung  00:00

In New York City when I was an undergrad, people don't really talk about the emotional aspect in their work. Because they're trying to be like, Oh, I'm making artwork because I am actually good at not because I need a way to express my feeling not because I am doing art as a therapy, right. But when I got to Florida, I feel like there's this mix where a lot of people would talk about the emotional aspect of the work. They talk about personal trauma perhaps or inspiration or identity. This

Isotta Page  00:43

This is Art Is… a podcast for artists, where we brainstorm the future of the art world and the creative industries.

Cindy Leung  00:56

My name is Cindy Leung. I was born and raised in Hong Kong, and then I got my BFA at Queens College City University of New York. And then I got my MFA at University of Florida in Gainesville, Florida. And now I am based in Kansas City, Missouri, for our year long residency at Boucher Art Center. In terms of my creative background, I make sculpture, I make little sculpture out of silk, tea and porcelain, specifically to kind of like talk about my personal journey, because I travel a lot. And so I'm using this material as a way to talk about perhaps a little bit of consumerism and colonization, as well as hybrid culture

Isotta Page  01:44

It's so interesting, I can't wait to hear more about your creative work. But before we dive in, could you tell us a little bit about your experience with your BFA and your MFA?

Cindy Leung  01:53

Yeah, I actually did not go to art school. So I can't really speak to the experience in terms of like, what it's like to be an art school or how helpful art school are in terms of professional development. And I just went to a regular University for my BFA and MFA. And so in terms of learning how to manage or just learning art business, who I would say they provide it for minimal help, I didn't learn how to start a business, I didn't learn how to map out a business plan, or you know, I don't know anything about getting a business loan or market myself as an artist. And I had to learn how to figure it out the Instagram algorithm. So I would say that going to universities didn't really help me in terms of starting my own art business. And this is something that I'm still learning. But what I learned in school, is that they always give you like opportunity to do let's say, pottery sale, or doing craft fair for fundraising for art clubs, right? And so I think, in planning all these events, and actually working the event, allows somebody to learn how to live professionally. So your work in that sense? What about you? Did you learn how to manage your art business? At school? Because you mentioned that your schooling is pretty traditional?

Isotta Page  03:30

No, I did not. It was very minimal as well at my university. And so how did you get the courage and the practice to begin your art business? Was it a lot of looking at what other people were doing? Or just kind of learning as you go? How did you kind of put yourself in the position to learn,
Cindy Leung  03:51

it really takes a lot of courage to keep applying for opportunities. I have a very good friend, and she got a lot of opportunities. And I'm not saying that I don't get jealous. But I also feel like I'm getting jealous of certain people gives her an opportunity. I'm also trying to rationally think and consider, okay, how did this person get this opportunity? Like, is there something that she did, or they did that I didn't do? And perhaps by having the courage to ask them, you know, I learned something from them. Right. And so right now, I just started to sell my work fairly recently. And I think I learned that from talking to my friends from Instagram. Also, I talked to other artists who have been selling their work through galleries and Art Center or exhibitions, and I asked about their experience, right, where should I start? Should I start from doing craft fairs Should I start from Selling through Etsy or Instagram, or, you know, I'm just trying to figure out what some of the good avenues I can employ in order to make a profit out of my artwork out of something that I enjoy doing. And so this is something that I'm still learning. The other day, I was just talking to my student that a lot of us are not exactly, actual foods. And I would have I would have to say that because I wasn't born and raised in this country in America, I feel very conscious about my English ability, right. And so I feel like for the first five years in America, I, I wasn't like a social butterfly. Exactly right. And that's something that I keep practicing. I keep going to exhibitions opening show to introduce myself, and I keep trying to talk to other artists. And so I think the point here is that if you can do it today, you can do it tomorrow, if you can take a big step, take a smaller step. And eventually, you'll get to the point where you have the courage to walk up to galleries, and be like, Hey, what is the possibility of me showing my work at your gallery? And then by doing that, maybe the galleries will be like, Hey, I'm sorry. But no, it doesn't work like that. Or maybe the person would be like, oh, yeah, you can send your portfolio for email, or the person will be like, Oh, do you have a studio, or certain place that I can come visit? You know, I just don't know what the possibilities are. And so I need to have the courage and go and find out and ask. And that's what I'm trying to do right now.

Isotta Page  06:50

That's awesome. So before we talk more about your business, I'd love to learn more about your creative practice. So could you tell us about what you're working on now and kind of how you got there
Cindy Leung  07:06

So this line of work that I'm doing right now, I so as I mentioned earlier, I use silk tea and porcelain in my work, because I consider this material originated in the east and pop allies in the West, through trading for colonization. And because I was born and raised in Hong Kong, I felt like this material really speak to my identity and the way that how they travel, right, it kind of speak to my personal journey, because I study a board. And now I'm sitting down in America. And so I think of the journey that certain things travel in order to get to our hands, like a lot of things nowadays are made in China. And so I look at them as like, I think about all how they were made, what kind of journey or how long it took for certain product to arrive in our hands. And so I'm using these materials to talk about that aspect. But also in making hybrid object right hybrid. So a materially hybrid object, I am also talking about the culture that I am growing up in, or that I grew up in, because growing up as a Hong Kong Chinese, I think that, you know, there's a European culture that I absorbed, without knowing it until I came to America and I encounter Chinese people from mainland China. And I realized that, hey, I don't speak Mandarin, I didn't grow up speaking Mandarin. And the culture is so different. And I felt like I was being isolated from a group of people that is supposed to be my people. Cohen called My people. And so I am trying to find where I belong, in a sense in making materially hybrid work. So that's where I'm at right now. And if you look at my work, each work is titled with a verb. And that has a lot to do with the way I learn English because as a kid, my English teacher will always correct me and say, Hey, Cindy, if you want to talk about an action, a verb, you would have to put the word to in front of the verb, so that I know that you're talking about an action, right? So like, for example, the word Polish means people from Poland, right? But then if you put to to polish, that it means completely something different. And that's something that I think about every day, right? The nature of the word, the meaning of the word, how is changes by just putting a small thing in front of it, if that makes sense
Isotta Page  09:58

That's so interesting. And I'd love to hear a little bit about your ceramics work. And like your experience with 3d ceramic printing or like some of these kind of different integrations of technology. It's really fascinating. And I was just curious.

Cindy Leung  10:16

Yeah, that was something that I had a lot of fun learning in grad school, when it first came out. Everybody's like, Whoa, this is so cool. This is so fun. You know, like, I don't have to ever touch the Clay Right? I can just design everything. And then the clay printer would just like magically do it for me, right? It's like, oh, you know, making work has never been easier. But I think that in learning that in experimenting it with the technology, I learned that it takes a lot of fungibility to find out that I'm actually bad at something, and, and that things don't always pan out the way you want it to be. Right. And so when that happened, you know, I'm not trying to have my ego to get in the way. I'm trying not to get frustrated, and like, oh, you know, like, I don't want to do this anymore. This is stupid. Like, I'm not trying to do that I'm trying to like, solve the problem, so that I could use this skill and put it on my belt so that when I apply for jobs, or when I apply for a certain opportunity, I can say that, hey, you know, I know, I noticed that your facility has this kind of equipment, and I have the experience, I have the skill set to you use this equipment, and so I could be an asset for your school or Art Center. And so these are the thing that I'm concerned when I'm trying a new technology, and ceramics. And in doing so I actually got an opportunity back in 2019, right before COVID to go to China and taught a five week summer workshop on ceramic 3d printing at this producers, ceramic Institute in Jingdezhen, China. And it was a very fascinating experience. Because the students were there were like industrial design student, like they knew nothing about ceramic, and their 3d volumes technique, like skew wise, like the software and everything, like they were really good. They were like, top notch, I felt like, you know, this really like nothing I can teach them about the software. Right. And I felt like I learned a lot from my student at that time. I think my role there was to tell them that, hey, you know, the printer works in certain way that your design, your computer design probably would not support. Right. And it might look amazing on the computer. But when you print it, you know, you have to consider like the way of the clay, or how the machine works. And there's like technical aspects that I could tell them. And so I could see from their faces that hey, they're like translating this, like computer image into this technology and into like, actually how it would pan out. And so that's something that I really enjoy from teaching that summer course.

Isotta Page  13:23

And was that like one of your first experiences teaching? I know that you pursue teaching as well? Could we learn a little bit about how that practice came to be?

Cindy Leung  13:33

Yeah, I would say that was my first time officially teaching a university course. But before that, I've taught summer camp and community classes in New York. But that's very different. Because there was no grading there was no conceptual development. But in university, like in a grant program, they usually provide a stipend. They provide teaching opportunities so that when you graduate, right, you already have some teaching experience. So it will be easier for you to find teaching opportunity, which is what I am doing right now.

Isotta Page  14:14

And how have you found being on the other end? So being like both a student and now also being a teacher? Have you been able to kind of integrate some of your own experiences as a student to then being a teacher, I know that you said that when you were in China, you learn so much from your students, which I'm sure happens every day. But I'd love to hear a little bit about how you feel about that kind of hybridity of going between student and teacher yourself.

Cindy Leung  14:42

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think that because I am fresh out of grad school. I graduated in 2021. It was so in the middle of the pandemic and so I wasn't really interested in teaching because I didn't really want to do online too. Teaching, because personally, I find that not engaging at all. And how do you teach a studio class from a computer? Right? And so I took a break. But I think that because I'm fresh out of grad school, I have much more compassion in terms of like understanding my student needs, right? Because I was a student for recently. And so I understand that, what I have hope for my teacher, and now I could do that with my student, right. I, I had hoped that hey, you know, I hope that my professor would provide more professional development advices, right, perhaps my professor could call that opportunity to teach me how to work with mixed material more often. And so just ceramic focus. And so that's something that I am trying to do with my students. And right now, I'm only a teaching a community college. And so the criteria for students to succeed is very different from a graduate program. It's much more relaxed compared to grad program. And so I'm focusing on how to help them build up a professional portfolio so that they could apply for, let's say, a BFA program, or even a certain scholarship opportunity. So that's my focus right now. Yeah,

Isotta Page  16:31

I think it's really cool that you're inspiring students from the community college level already, with, you know, the kind of skills and resources that they need to pursue a more professional practice. Because as you mentioned earlier, when you were in your BFA and MFA program, that wasn't a big focal point in your program. And I know that that's a very common experience for artists who went to university for art. And I was wondering how you feel about teaching that kind of skill set? And how do you help your students understand the kind of business skills that they need or the kind of communication skills because just even going up to someone and sharing about your work is really complicated and takes a lot of confidence? So how do you encourage other emerging artists and students to start doing that? If you were talking to a group of students who were very early in their career, what would you say to them as advice.

Cindy Leung  17:33

So when I was sitting in my grad program, it was still, in the middle of the pandemic, there weren't a lot of opening. And also, it really depends on where you are. I was staying in a small town in Florida. And so there were only like a couple galleries. And there weren't a lot of opening happening every Friday night. So it's not like I could tell my student Hey, you know, this Friday is First Friday Art Walk, there would be like five gallery opening in the area, you should go check it out. And like talk to other artists, maybe you will meet local artists, you know, wasn't like that. And now that I'm in a bigger city, I'm in Kansas City, Missouri right now, I could tow suit on that, oh, you know, this is the first Friday Art Walk in this area, there are 10 galleries, opening, you should at least go to one of them and try to talk to one person. And you don't have to say much just say hi, my name is blank. I do this, you know, and then if that person reciprocate in a friendly way, perhaps you could like give them your business card or perhaps like a friend, you know, extremes into the current, I feel like the younger generation actually is so much better in terms of their Instagram thing than me, I felt like I learned a lot from them. And I talked to my student, you know, I tell my students that hey, you know, like, you're not gonna get to my level in one day. Like it took me like years to work up the courage to talk to other people at galleries opening and I, I still struggle with that some time. But I felt like you know, with opening, there's always a lot of things going on. And so, you know, if the conversation doesn't go, Well, you can always just say, Hey, I'm gonna go get a drink. I'll be right back and then never return. I don't know if if you're like that, you know, but I found that very helpful. If you sense that, you know, the person is not reciprocating.

Isotta Page  19:31

Yeah, of course. I mean, it's funny, but even just like breaking it down like that is really great, because it helps you remember that there's communication skills at the end of the day.

Cindy Leung  19:41

Yeah, yeah. And I felt like I learned a lot just by talking to other artists or just by like, eavesdropping somebody's conversation and a gallery. I felt like I learned how to market myself. I learned how to talk about my work in a different way. Right? Perhaps or you know, some people talk about their emotional aspect of the work much more often than using big words or certain ideology. I feel like the conversation kind of vary in different environment. I feel like in New York City when I was an undergrad, people don't really talk about the emotional aspect in the work. Because they're trying to be like, Oh, I'm making artwork, because I am actually good. Not because I need a way to express my feeling not because I am doing art as a therapy, right. But when I got to Florida, I feel like there's this mix where a lot of people would talk about the emotional aspect of work. They talk about personal trauma, perhaps or inspiration or identity. And my initial response to that when I first got to Florida, I was like, Where is the professionalism, you know, but then as time go by, I feel like I've become much more flexible, where I feel like every time I make work, or everybody, when everybody will make work, I can see that there's always a personal connection in the work, right. And so in a way, I feel like everybody's making identity work. Social justice work. I mean, it does sounds like it has nothing to do with the person background or life. But I felt like, there's got to be something about this person, that strongly associated with that movement. And so that is why this person or this artist, choose this topic, right for their work. And so by hearing like, compensation, or by hearing how art is talk about their work, I become so much more flexible. In the way I talk about my work, right? Like, depending on who you are, like, if it's like artists who are artists like right now, I will talk about the emotional aspects of my work, and also the research that goes into my practice, right. But if it's like at a university setting, or if I'm giving out artists tall, perhaps I would not talk so much about my emotional aspect of the work, if that makes sense.

Isotta Page  22:12

Yeah, totally. I think that's such an interesting point about balancing that kind of internal dialogue with this more of a professional way of explaining your work. And I was wondering, how do you think that applies to the opportunities that you're pursuing? Whether that's finding a gallery, or an artist residency, or, you know, pursuing public projects? Like how do you balance the way that your practice evolves creatively with the professional choices that you want to make and like the goals that you set? Because I feel that often, we're comparing ourselves to other artists paths, and maybe the kind of work that we make is so different to theirs, that it wouldn't really make sense to follow that path. But because there's so little transparency around professional trajectories for artists in the creative industries, we find ourselves a little bit lost, and at times in this kind of loop of insecurity and jealousy.

Cindy Leung  23:16

Yeah, I think that has a lot to do with trial and error. I mean, in terms of residency or professional opportunities, I really think it's really a number game. Like last year, I think I applied for 25 opportunities 25 residency in the country, and I only got four interview. And then at the end, I think I only guys have to enter three. So it's really a number game. But I feel like every time I write a residency proposal for these opportunities, like I adjusted a little bit, right, I look at the Art Center, and I look at their past resident, I look at the resident work, and I tried to like talk to them on Instagram, right? Instagram is a great tool for that. But also, you know, look at the work and see how much they talk about the emotional aspect in their work, or do they just talk about their research, right? How do they justify what they're making, you know, and why they're making that. And so I feel like it really depends on the setup, right? If you are at a research heavy residency, then perhaps you don't want to talk so much about your personal life, and how it influenced your artwork. Perhaps that should be like 20% of your work or your proposal, right? And 80% would be like, I'm doing this because of this research, right? But right now, from where I'm at, I felt like there's a very good balance between the professional research and the personal aspect in my work where I have my personal life and so When I propose, I think I remember that, hey, I would like to continue making the mixed media work that I've been making, but in a larger scale, and perhaps I could also write poetry that inspire me to make more work. And so when it comes to poetry, that's my way, that's my outlet for my private life in a way. I mean, it's easy for me to say that, hey, you know, figure it out and fill it out. But it's really about experimenting, and like, you know, trial and error. Like if I didn't get this opportunity, and maybe next time if I apply for this opportunity again, I should adjust my proposal a little bit. Right. I think that's my approach. Maybe somebody will tell me that. No, I'm doing it wrong. I should absolutely 100% of the time maintain my professional Prasad and only talk about my research. But I think at this point of my life, I feel like I see benefit in being the authentic me much more than maintaining a facade that could easily fall off anytime. I have a website is WWE dot Cindy co sy.com. I'm also on Instagram at Cindy CLS y. I have a lot of input Chris picture I share. A lot of my friends work as well just to pull both a healthy way to like promo my peers.

Isotta Page  26:35

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