The Future Art Festival

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Joshua: I think w one of the things that's worked for us is if you have a vision,you know, don't wait for someone else to legitimize it. I think there's all these artificial and cultural boundaries to success, to legitimacy, to. What is good? What is art? What is good art? what is quality, that you don't have to buy that you don't have to accept As true.

[00:00:23] Isotta: This is Art Is… a podcast for artists where we brainstormed the future of the art world and the creative industries. Today I'm sharing a very exciting conversation with Joshua Bernard all about Luma, the projection mapping festival happening in downtown Binghamton, New York.

[00:00:45] Isotta: First of all, if you're in the greater New York area, please check it out. It's free and happening very soon on September 10th and 11th 2021. Follow the link in the episode description to register your free ticket. Now, In this episode, Joshua tells us all about projection mapping, what it is, why it's such an innovative and creative medium, and what drew him to it in the first place we delve into the specifics of the international roster of artists exhibiting at Luma this year, along with how he and his co-founder have dealt with the challenges of.

[00:01:15] Isotta: one of the things I was really excited to talk to Joshua about was how one goes about starting a festival in the first place and how he and his team navigated the process.

[00:01:24] Isotta: Of building a global event in a small town, We delve into how he developed the many necessary sponsorships and partnerships and how he sees the landscape of creative festivals, evolving Joshua's passion and enthusiasm is energizing. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Just one thing before we. when you have a minute, please leave.

[00:01:46] Isotta: Art is a rating and review in apple podcasts. It really helps other emerging artists and creatives find us. And if you feel like making a financial contribution to the work I do, you can donate through the link in the episode description. Thanks so much.

[00:02:02] My name is Joshua Bernard and I'm the co-founder of Luma projection arts festival and a director of operation.

[00:02:10] Luma, is a art meets tech meets storytelling festival. we focus primarily in projection mapping, but not solely on projection mapping and projection mapping is really. the art of transforming 3d objects through the use of projected light,we often use, but not always use computer animation to achieve that effect.

[00:02:28] but what it looks like really is, we take over, a small city and upstate New York. we close it.

[00:02:33] Joshua: down and it's like walking through an outdoor art gallery. And as you walk through all of the buildings transform. around you and it's a magical experience because all of the light is cut off except for the light projected on the building.

[00:02:46] Joshua: So it literally looks like the buildings are physically transforming. they can collapse before your eyes or reassemble themselves. a city hall can transform into a palace. it's,the limits to it are really only limited to the storyteller's imagination, and their technical ability.

[00:03:01] Joshua: I live in upstate New York, in Binghamton, New York. And I'm originally from right outside of New York city area suburb of New York, north Jersey. And I moved up to Binghamton, because I was working in radio and you got to move to a smaller market to get on air. I didn't know that I'd really love small town living and I did, so I stayed here. now what I discovered having never lived in sort of a small. American city like this before and Binghamton sort of a rust belt city. some of the industry isn't what it once was, is that there were a lot of great things happening in this town and it was sometimes difficult for folks in and around the town to really acknowledge, what the strengths were.

[00:03:39] and,it's sometimes takes folks from the outside to really capitalize on. What really works about a city. And so that's really what me and my business partner Tice really set out to do as I said, I was working at radio at the time and I started planning events downtown to help with downtown revitalization, which was, a trend that was happening outside of me.

[00:03:58] Joshua: Obviously there were lots of people working on that sort of thing, but that was my way of pitching in, was by working on some event planning and, as downtown redeveloped, we started to look for something that was unlikely. anyone had experienced in the region. So we, downtown was doing well.

[00:04:15] Joshua: And then we've tried bring in some tourism from cities that were, an hour away, a Syracuse, if you knew where Binghamton is, Wilkes-Barre Scranton, other regional cities. And we discovered that like a lot of the stuff we were doing was being done in other places. So we started to search for something that was truly unique.

[00:04:29] Joshua: Now we also want to capitalize on the strengths of the region. Part of what was revitalizing downtown Binghamton was this great article. We had independent artists that were buying up buildings downtown that were, turning them to galleries. we had something called the first Friday art walk where all the galleries were open.

[00:04:44] Joshua: It was just, really reacquainting people, rebranding the city. And we love that and we wanted to bring that to a larger number of people. So we thought, Okay.

[00:04:53] Joshua: it's got to capitalize on the art scene. we also have this great downtown restaurant scene and,we've got this great university here with all of these students with great tech skills.

[00:05:01] Joshua: So w how can we bring all this stuff together? And my business partner, Tice, learner said, what are you,

[00:05:06] Joshua: about projection mapping? And I didn't know a lot at all, but I went online. I went to YouTube and I started projection mapping, and I just found it. immense amazing mind-bending pieces of art, that has been recorded, generally all over Europe.

[00:05:22] Joshua: Projection mapping is really big. There's a big festival in Australia, and I was just really inspired by what was done. and I said, does anyone really doing this in the U S and there were some sporadic here and there activity happening, but No.

[00:05:34] Joshua: one had really organized, a sustainable. Annual festival, to celebrate projection mapping in the way so many in your pads.

[00:05:41] Joshua: So we said this could be our thing. and it, it turned out to be something that really resonated with an awful lot of. and

[00:05:46] Joshua: I think one of the advantages of. Being in a small town is the accessibility of talented people. so for instance, I'm a photographer and I learned that craft while I was living in Darrington in large part. That's how I connected with Tice.

[00:06:00] Joshua: He is an incredibly talented street photographer and he's the sort of person than some larger city. I wouldn't necessarily be able to penetrate that network of really skilled, really talented people. To get advice from, to get mentorship from, but when you're in a smaller town, almost by necessity, you connect with people that don't have the skillset you have and you build these connections and folks that with talent are way more accessible than they would be in some other contexts.

[00:06:26] and what it does is it gives you the willingness, the,the. The sort of courage to take risks in ways. I don't think you would, in a more established city where everything you might try to do there is somebody that's been doing that for 30 years and been doing it well.

[00:06:41] Joshua: the pandemic has changed things and in a lot of ways, any adversity will change the way people look at this sort of community building. And so one of the things that worked about us doing this in Binghamton was, there was. History of economic struggle, where everybody was willing to team up and partner and push in one direction to do something that was all larger than themselves.

[00:07:03] Joshua: And that can be harder someplace that has no. Struggle that has no strife. and, except for your individual struggles, strife, maybe, but, you know,to go to a place where everybody really wants to see something happen, can really be to your advantage sometimes too, I think.

[00:07:18] The whole world is like that right now, given COVID.

[00:07:20] could you take us back, likeinto your world and how it began and how you mobilize the community of Binghamton?

[00:07:27] Joshua: we began Lumet in 2015. at the time I was working in public media and, had an idea for a project. I wanted somebody to support. that was the, the CEO of a local credit union. and I initially had a meeting, with, his name is time use from visions, federal credit union to discuss this other project, which he was interested in.

[00:07:46] Joshua: But he also said to me, he's like,you know, I've been watching your work in the community outside of your day job and you do some really creative stuff. and some of it's really innovative, like what is the project that you've always really wanted to work on, but haven't had support to do. And. We had happened to be talking about this idea, this pipe dream at the time, to do a projection mapping festival.

[00:08:05] Joshua: And to have somebody ask us that question at that moment, I it's sort ofa dream, right? Hey, I have a pool of money to support cool creative projects that are going to build the community. And you happen to know of one, in fact, you've been thinking about doing one, but never thought you could get funding for it.

[00:08:19] Joshua: And so it was just sort offate to have that question asked in that moment. and that began at all in a lot of ways. when we talk about,sponsorship when we talk about financial support,if you can find someone that is connected in a community, that is well established as respected, that is going to get behind something in a big way.

[00:08:36] Joshua: It's sort of obvious, right? Because it goes without saying that some of the chips are gonna fall into place as a result of that. And that's what happened after that. You know, this was sort of a a pipe dream until somebody came along and said, Hey, actually this might be something that people would fund. and I don't think it happens for a lot of people that way, but I think we were lucky.

[00:08:54] in the very beginning, look, it is a small town. and the, the funding sources can be a little bit more limited. So we had to start a little bit smaller and a lot of ways we sort ofhad to reinvent the wheel as kind of a dress rehearsal.

[00:09:05] Joshua: What do I mean by that? we couldn't bring in a projection mapping company. from all over the world in year one, we had to figure out how to do it ourselves. We had to team up with local artists that had experience, with computer animation, for instance, but it never done projection mapping. And we started by projection mapping, my kitchen cabinets, and we said, okay, this is how this is done.

[00:09:23] so year one and year two was really us, trying to get to the level of some of, the festivals that we, respected. and were well-established. once we were proven though, once we have this proof of concept, we can go back to our supporters and say, look, the idea here was to build something that didn't exist regionally.

[00:09:41] but beyond that could compete on the world stage was something that was as good, if not better. then, other folks that were doing similar, events international. And so,people had enough respect for what we had done so far that they were willing to help take us to the next level. And we started looking, all over the globe for, the best projection mapping artists.

[00:10:00] Joshua: And we made a list and we called them one at a time. And it turned out that many of them were really excited that somebody was doing this in the United States, because this was a place they had really hoped would get more into the projection mapping scene. And, hadn't yet really delved in,

[00:10:14] Isotta: before we go any further, could you explain a little bit in more detail? what projection mapping is and what are the tools and technical parts involved?

[00:10:25] Joshua: I'm gonna give you the very technical definition of projection mapping first, and then I'll give you the more interesting definition in my mind. projection mapping. Is the art of mapping onto any surface. That is three-dimensional. So unless you're, projecting on a wall or a movie screen or some standard surface where you don't really care what the shape and size of it is. Yeah.

[00:10:46] Joshua: Your projection mapping, you can projection map onto a cube. You can project the map onto a small sphere onto, miniature, action fighting figure. anything that's three-dimensional that you're projecting onto you. you are participating in the art of projection mapping.

[00:10:59] the most popular. that is done in public and the form we really embrace is architectural projection mapping. And so it's projecting, largely on the surface of buildings. we have a lot of historic buildings in Binghamton that have lots of really cool, ornate, architectural features that the artists can play with.

[00:11:16] Joshua: And, usually what you do is you start by creating a 3d model in an animation program. The object, you're going to projection map onto in this case, the facade of a building, once you've created that, model in, 3d modeling software and then import it to an animation software.

[00:11:31] Well, then you can manipulate that model in any way. you can transform it in any way you can,you can imagine, the texture, the shape, the color,the architecture itself can move, can transform over time. You can give it life and you can tell a story, which is really what we encourage our artists to do, which is this is supposed to be a narrative experience.

[00:11:48] Joshua: It's supposed to be in a mode of experience. It's not, it's supposed to be sort offireworks. It's supposed to be a story from beginning to end, even if it's more abstract story and it's supposed to affect the audience in one way. that's really what we push our artists to do is take it beyond the kind of fireworks, the special effects of, Ooh, isn't it.

[00:12:03] Joshua: Cool. We're transforming the building. Now the trick here is, when you do this, when you present it in person, if you want to eliminate all ambient light on the building.

[00:12:12] Isotta: Wow.

[00:12:12] Joshua: You get the lights as dumb as possible in the region of the building. And then the only light that's going onto the buildings is the projected light.

[00:12:19] Joshua: And so you can imagine if you control all the light, you can transform the building. In a way that sort of magical because,as you take away lights on various parts of the building vanishes, so it really gives you full control of the visual effect.

[00:12:32] some people describe it as almost augmented reality without the need for special glasses. because you are doing something that is impossible. That is magical. That is transformational. That is defies the physical world, except all you're using is projected light.

[00:12:46]

[00:12:46] Isotta: I'd love to hear like how the local community responded to this kind of work

[00:12:51] I think our artists love coming to Binghamton in part, because they're reaching audiences that they never reach. they're used to. urban audiences. They're used to tourists coming through the city. They're used to people that travel. this is a little bit of a different crowd and they love that because they're reaching people that their art.

[00:13:09] Joshua: never reaches, which is I think exciting for me as a member of the community, to be able to bring it to people, and exciting to the artists as I don't know that they feel like they can only reach X percentage of the population that are going to come to a festival if it's only held in a major metropolitan city. and this, in fact, it's sort ofbringing the art to folks,that might never travel to do that kind of thing.

[00:13:29] but people do travel from all over the world to come see Luma as well. So it's this great mixing of populations. so our curator really for the project is,

[00:13:37] Joshua: Tice learner, my partner. And he makes a real effort. I think both of us do to present different kinds of work, such that there is something at Luma for everyone.

[00:13:49] there are pieces that are far more accessible. There are pieces that are far more experimental. And I think if you give people an entry into the world, in this case, projection mapping, but whatever art form it is, if you give people an entry into that world, they're willing to go on a journey with you and experience things that maybe less to their taste, or It.

[00:14:10] Joshua: might be a little more experimental or might be a little unusual, a little less accessible, a little less clear what it is they're supposed to experience see feel.

[00:14:18] we've done pieces that aren't projection mapping, we've done things that are just light art. We've done things that are a fully immersive environment. light music, interaction installations, and those things are very different than how we drew people in to begin with this,with these very big, bold animated projections that were much more accessible, but once people were at the festival and experiencing, something that they did really revel in, they were willing to try things that were a little bit less familiar with.

[00:14:47] Isotta: it actually makes me think of a kind of global phenomenon that I've been hearing a lot about and people have been so excited about, which is the likevan Gogh experience or the claim to experience these immersive light, projections how do these kinds of external factors shape your thinking on developing this, event?

[00:15:07] Joshua: we wanted to play on the world stage. You know, you think about how are you going to be different? How are you going to be unique on the world stage? considering how many festivals have been doing this for few years, considering how many other places there are to travel. and how many different examples of projection art there are you use?

[00:15:23] Joshua: Vango is one example and our approach was always, we want to. Find what we consider to be thebest of the world at this form of art. And to give them a sort of a playground for experimentation to give them an opportunity to exercise their imaginations,and to try things that have been in the back of their head that they have never experienced before.

[00:15:47] Joshua: So in short, we love. We love the hype around projection mapping. We love that it's growing. We love that people are seeing more of it and understanding that it exists is an art form because we think our offerings are really special. And once people have gotten curious about it, we think they'll definitely come to Binghamton and check out Luma and be really wowed at the quality of the work they're going to see here. the artists love coming here. I told you cause they love the audiences, but they also love the freedom. At the beginning of the season, we hand our artists a stack of photos of buildings in downtown Binghamton and say, choose your canvas. a lot of projection mapping festivals in Europe,they have a competition on one building, which is a really cool format and really interesting and really dynamic. we think that if we give our artists the opportunity to have their own building to sort of own that,it, you know, they try a different building every year. they have the,the most freedom because they're No.

[00:16:42] Joshua: longer being told, Okay.

[00:16:43] Joshua: this is your canvas work on this. and it really is something that excites them and I think helps them produce better work for the audiences.

[00:16:50] and so I think, what I'm getting at basically is just. the unique thing that we bring to the table is basically bringing the best folks in and giving them the most freedom, which, what artists isn't looking for. That I think that's one thing that, allows us to capitalize on the hype of, what's already out there.

[00:17:06] Joshua: And I think the other thing is we really emphasize, what I talked about before, which is the narrative storytelling aspect of it. to be a longterm sustainable art form, as opposed to, just a series of sensational special effects that over time gets boring is like any other art form you're gonna need to connect with it.

[00:17:25] emotionally, it's going to have to communicate something it's going to have meaning beyond whizzbang. Wow. And so we really pushed that with our artists. Tell a story, communicate with your audience. give them a unique experience that is going to touch them in some way. And I think that's something that also will, allow them to experience something that they won't always experience when they have other projected art experience.

[00:17:49] Isotta: as an artist myself, it's so interesting and exciting to hear how much support enthusiasm and opportunity you're giving to the artists of Luma to really go into the corners of their mind and just explore, different ideas that they haven't had the opportunity to do before. So I'm sure they're really excited about that.

[00:18:07] every year we have around five major features and then surprises, which we're hoping we'll have some of this year, because of COVID we're little bit smaller than we have been in 2019, for instance. but, it really gives you plenty to see over the course.

[00:18:22] Joshua: one of our artists would you saw a preview work last night and it was gorgeous. The work for this year is a, an artist called light. they're out of Brooklyn in New York and, Ryan who's the lead artist and the creative director of light harvest, is probably one of our most creative, one of our most innovative storytellers.

[00:18:40] Joshua: It's one of the reasons we love working with him. And one of the things he does that I really love is, he sort oflooks at the art form and figures out what the challenges are. To connecting with an audience. And in this case, I think, you know, you're talking about these hard materials. you're talking about, brick, stone,granite and, And he tries to make the experience a little bit more organic.

[00:19:02] Joshua: And one of the things he loves doing is by using dancers, or human beings, sometimes not.

[00:19:07] Joshua: always dancers, actors, people that do movement, and putting them in motion capture suits, and having them control elements of the animation. Sometimes there'll be a literal figure, a person that's experiencing the story.

[00:19:19] sometimes it will be. some more abstract person. in this particular case, he did motion capture with this year's project, but in a really unexpected way, you won't necessarily see by watching the piece that he did this year, what the motion captures controlling, but simply by using the motion capture technology and having a human being control, the animated elements, it introduces this more organic element that you can almost.

[00:19:44] Isotta: Yes.

[00:19:44] that's light harvest, uh, who will be appearing this year? max intensity, I think. Really specializes in spectacular meticulously, drawn meticulously, rendered, meticulously mapped, projection mapping. they really know how to transform every element of the building and in really exciting ways.

[00:20:04] Joshua: And they'll use every physical feature that they see. and integrated into the art. And that really is when this thing comes alive and max intensity will be presenting a new work again this year, they're really a crowd favorite. we have, an artist called Cylus Sveta, which is the, uh, this one.

[00:20:20] Joshua: They're being into a and Luma debut this year. they are, out of Moscow and, have really shown at projection mapping competitions and light installation, events all over the globe and their piece this year is actually based on Edgar Allen. Poe's the Raven. And, in addition to being based on the work of an author that I really love, they're also.

[00:20:43] a competition as they call it between human designers and artificial intelligence. So the first half of the projection mapping is created in a very traditional way by projection mapping artists. And the last half is generated entirely by artificial intelligence. And so we'll be really excited to see what that experiment comes out. we're working with, artists that we work with first time in 2019, called freckled sky. And freckled sky has been on America's got talent twice. they've, designed a number of stage shows for Eurovision, and. They really like stretching the boundaries of the interaction between live performance elements and projected elements, computer animated elements.

[00:21:20] Joshua: And we'll be doing that again this year with a project they call the invisible showman, which I can't tell you too much about it. This boy. And I'm missing one artist. Yes, of course. Mindscape will be joining us for the first time this year. they have really been a festival award winner all over the world, and they, focus on these competitions and they're really just loved by audiences all over the globe.

[00:21:40] Joshua: People keep asking us, when are you gonna bring them in when you can bring that in? And this will be that first year working with them. We're really excited. They're a group out of Romania that we're excited to have on the roster.

[00:21:48] Isotta: I'd love to hear a little bit about how. You've actually navigated, you know, the challenges of COVID, but also just the generic challenges in general of building and growing a festival. I know that so many people are interested in this creative medium, and the idea of bringing people together, who all love art and projection mapping or music, or even, you know, more traditional exhibitions.

[00:22:11] So perhaps you could bring us into, maybe a bit more of the detail of how you go about starting a festival

[00:22:16] Joshua: of the things that helped me was I had already established, a local reputation among potential, funding sources,business leaders in the area that they knew my work, they respected my work. And so it made it a little bit easier to pitch a really outside the box idea.

[00:22:34] Joshua: So I think that's something that really helps you as you have a community of funders that you've established some sense of respect with, or your partner with someone who, who has that.

[00:22:41] Joshua: I think,growing it over time has been challenging in a community this size. I, one of the things you'll know about Lumo, it's interesting is if you go look at another festival, on the scale of Luma, you might see a list of five major sponsors really highlighted, and that's where all the funding comes from.

[00:22:57] Joshua: If you go to Luma's website, you're gonna see that over time, we've had over a hundred sponsors. and so it is much more. Like mom and pop funded, if you will. we have some larger sponsors. There's no question. We're really excited that we're presented,by our title sponsor IBM this year, our technology partner, since 2019 has been Panasonic.

[00:23:14] Joshua: So those things have come over time and have been really exciting for us obviously. But when we first started. it was,a heavy lift, but there were aa lot of people that pitched in, we do a Kickstarter every single year. One of the reasons we do that is we need the funding, obviously.

[00:23:29] Joshua: But then on top of that,we demonstrate the passion for the project to our other thunders. They respect that many people are willing to pitch in their own cash to make Luma happen every year. And it's one of the reasons that they want to put their name on.

[00:23:43] Isotta: Yeah.

[00:23:44] as for challenges during COVID. Yeah.

[00:23:46] Joshua: We felt like we had a special responsibility because we were, not just artists, but technologists to be able to hopefully keep artists working during the pandemic. And so we teamed up with a local opera company, Tri-Cities opera that really does national quality work, and we produced the world's first live streaming, virtual reality opera.

[00:24:06] and it was a really exciting project that was called Miranda, a steam punk opera. we worked with, an amazing composer, Commonwealth and Carrum, amazing director. I mean, it's just,a great team of creatives that were more in the world of opera, that were very, excited and comfortable with.

[00:24:22] I should say Cabela's super comfortable with doing high-tech work and has done a lot of it in the past. some of the creative team,less so,but it was that amazing partnership. Of working together that allowed us to make something that no one had ever done before. it earned limits versus New York times review, which was pretty exciting.

[00:24:36] Joshua: And it was probably the first time in history that, the New York times had ever reviewed a, a theater opening out of Binghamton New York, which was fun. We saw the opportunity, to do something in a moment when no one else could quite figure out how to get it together for very good reason, just because we thought we had the unique tool set to make it happen, and also a responsibility to pay back the artists who, couldn't do it on their own.

[00:24:57] because they didn't necessarily have the technical skills and were working during that time. And so we, had an entire cast of singers, here in Binghamton and everything. Everything was socially distanced. everything was,best practices for, having any sort of office work done during COVID.

[00:25:09] all the performers were in motion, capture, gear, and interacting in real time, even though they weren't in the same space.

[00:25:17] we try to hold our festival as an opportunity for people to experiment, to work outside the box and to do things they've never done before. A lot of our artists, do commercial work as well.

[00:25:29] Joshua: And this is their moment,to take risks and we'd like to hope that a festival environment is the place where you take risks and push things forward, because why not here? Where else would you do it? That's what it should be if we do it right.and that's our value to our audiences too, is to come and see something you've never seen before, because no, one's tried it before, because no, one's wanting to risk it in, maybe on larger, more prominent stage, in a more commercial context,it's all about pushing whatever art forms are being incorporated forward. And as I said,we started in projection mapping because it was an area that, that was undeveloped in the United States, but we've presented all sorts of art meets tech projects.

[00:26:07] and we've partnered with the most traditional. artistic organizations we've we partnered with opera companies. We partnered,twice with, the beginning of Philharmonic, with full orchestra. we've worked with traditional cartoonists,we've worked with programmers.

[00:26:19] Joshua: It really is all about bringing all of these different things to the mix and working without the limits of genre of medium.

[00:26:28] the event is September 10th and September 11th. We strongly urge people to come in. Person. People do come from all over the world. certainly if in the United States, anywhere in the Northeast, it's very accessible. and, we have a lot of people that like to comfortable nights,The nights are different just because they really like to experience it twice.

[00:26:44] there's just something really unique about the experience of seeing it in person video. Doesn't capture it, unfortunately. I'm sorry to tell you, we do post videos of the features a month or two after the event, we do not live stream. part of this is just,live streaming video does not capture the nuance, the quality, the impact of what it is to be.

[00:27:02] standing in the street with a thousand other people looking up at a seven story piece of art. There's just no,

[00:27:09] Joshua: way to experience it being there. I'm afraid. I'm sorry to tell you. but, gets a Luma, gets your nearest projection mapping festival. there's still plenty of time to come join us. If you get to lumen festival.com and get all the information this year, by the way, for the first time our event is ticketed.

[00:27:21] Joshua: I should add that the event is completely free. to anyone who attends and has always been, we have some ticketed events, but, typically the most of the event is free. for the first time this year we're gonna have, free ticket reservations because we're trying to limit the capacity due to COVID and make sure everyone stays safe.

[00:27:37] but, in a typical year, you don't even have to get a ticket and you just show up, this year you have to go to Luma festival.com and make sure to make your reservation,you know, advance of the event up to the day of.

[00:27:46] Joshua: I think w one of the things that's worked for us is if you have a vision,you know, don't wait for someone else to legitimize it. I think there's all these artificial and cultural boundaries to success, to legitimacy, to. What is good? What is art? What is good art? what is quality, that you don't have to buy that you don't have to accept As true.

[00:28:08] I mean, one of the things that we had to reject even bother is this idea that good art will not come from upstate New York, right? high-quality, world-class a festival can not be built in upstate New York. You know, we started by. we have two choices. We can either accept that premise and not bother or reject that premise and build what we built.

[00:28:29] and we rejected the premise and lo and behold, it turned out that piece of, conventional wisdom. Wasn't true. And I think there's a lot of conventional wisdom that holds us back as. and I think that you should be prepared to question everything in terms of,the pathway forward.

[00:28:46] Joshua: you don't instinctually, believe that it's. So if you have a feeling that everyone is accepting something and you're seeing right through it,

[00:28:55] Isotta: Thank you for listening to season two. Episode 13 of art is a podcast for artists this week. I'd like to thank our lovely guest, Joshua check out the episode description for resources and more on this episode. Including where to learn more about Luma and book your ticket for September 10th or 11th, we will also be sharing some amazing photos from the festival on our Instagram.

[00:29:19] Isotta: So go follow Art Is… a podcast for artists . Thanks so much for tuning in every week. I really appreciate you listening and your continued. See you next week for the final episode of season two.