Product Management for Artists

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Annabel: So last year when I first started, I saw my practice as a business and very much, I have a product that I want to sell rather than I'm an artist.

[00:00:12] Annabel: This is what I make. If you want it, you can buy it.

[00:00:15] Isotta: this is Art Is.. a podcast for artists, where we visualize the future of the art world and the creative industries.

[00:00:27] Isotta: this season, we're revisiting the topics and ideas introduced in season one, through conversations with leaders from beyond the art realm and the tech industry and startup space with creative change-makers in the design world and emerging artists.

[00:00:41] Isotta: The mission of art is, has been to encourage emerging artists, students, and early career creatives to seek out possible futures for the art world. One where our creative ambitions and professional needs are met.

Part of this mission is recognizing the power and value of our stories and experiences Not only for our own creative and professional growth, but for our collective community development artists. So we are used to sharing our creative work, but we must learn to be more open with our professional practices as well. This transparency is integral to building a better, more inclusive and supportive art industry.

[00:01:16] Isotta: Yeah.

[00:01:16] Isotta: Today. I am speaking with Annabel Cucuz, sculptor, and creative businesswoman based in England. Annabel brings us inside of her world, sharing her journey from graduating into the pandemic with only an online degree to starting her own art business, selling ceramic vases as a soldier.

she explains how she balances the divide between fine art and design product. Through branding, tiered pricing and creative partnerships.

[00:01:40] Isotta: Annabel goes into detail, describing how she uses Instagram to reach influencers in the design and homeware space and how she has crafted abusiness model that supports her evolving fine art practice Annabel. And I actually know each other from our time at Edinburgh college of art, where we shared a studio space in the sculpture department.

[00:01:58] Isotta: I really enjoyed catching up with Annabel and hearing her journey to becoming a self-employed artist. And I hope you do as well. I also wanted to ask a quick favor when you have a moment, I would really appreciate you.

[00:02:09] Isotta: Leaving art is a rating and review in apple podcasts or your pod player of choice. It really helps others find us.

I'm on a Bible teachers. I was in his autos year at Edinburgh. we're both studying sculpture together and we both graduated into the pandemic last year in 2020. so we were left without a degree show, which for those of you that have studied art in university will know that the degree share is so of your spring board into your career.

it's what you've been working towards for your whole degree. and you have this great exhibition at the end where gallerists will come and look at your work. I mean the general public will come look at your work. It's just, it's great exposure and it's yeah , it's,the best thing about an art degree, really?

[00:02:56] Annabel: And we were left without tech because of the pandemic. Everyone had to go home. and flee their studios. And so we had an online degree show, which, I mean, wasn't great, especially for those studying sculpture.

[00:03:09] Annabel: so yeah, that was when everyone went home, we were all in lockdown and I was used to making big sculptures at university.

for my degree show, I was working on three meter, tall sculptures. And when I got home, I was like, okay I can't make this at home. I need to metal workshop as is also will know as well. And so I was like, okay, how can I adapt? So I just started making what I was making, but on a smaller scale.

[00:03:39] Annabel: So what I was making it university of where these giant vase shapes that were ambiguous forms quite wavy and wiggly. And so I was making some, a plasticine at home. And that was when someone messaged me on Instagram, who had seen my work on the online degree show and said that they wanted to buy one of these plasticine vases.

[00:04:05] Annabel: And I was like, what? Okay. So I realized that I could actually, I can actually do this I started making vases out of agile. I clay, because I was at home in the middle of a pandemic. I didn't have that customer account. I'd never made ceramics before. so I was like, okay, I'm going to get some air dry clay and make some vases and go from there.

[00:04:27] Annabel: So that's what I did. and it just started to really pick up, like people started to. See them on Instagram, which was my main platform. And people started asking to buy them and it really gained momentum. so I was like, okay, you know what, I'm going to try this. I'm going to put all my effort in to making this an art practice.

so I bought a kiln the money that I made from selling these air dry vases and basically spent. December January and February learning how to make ceramics on learning all the technical process of kilns And it was so complicated. I think I learned more. Then in three months than I did in my whole degree, I felt like I was teaching myself a ceramics degree.

I guess my practice at the moment is me making these balls is that aresculptures in their own, right? By like the fact that they have a function of being a vase too. So anyone that owns one can add what they want to it, whether that's a floral arrangement or a candle away.

Um, so I like how it looked different depending on who has it.

[00:05:35] Isotta: so you taught yourself how to. do ceramics. what about the business side of your work? how did you navigate that new side of your art practice and understanding how to sell and where to sell and how to market your work online?

at university, I think. When you're in the fine arts, there's a massive taboo about money. obviously people know that artists need to make money, but I think that it was very difficult. tutors didn't openly talk about selling your work. Really. It was very much, you were there to be a serious artist and that's all you should care about is your art.

and obviously I think that's quite privileged perspective. if you want to be an artist and you want to be able to live off being an artist, then you need to know how to make money from it. my parents are both south employees, so luckily I had that.

to ask a lot of questions because otherwise there's so much stuff that I literally would not have known about. and my sister's She's just graduated from a law degree so I could ask her loads of things I wouldn't have known otherwise. so yeah, I basically just started saying them on Instagram and I knew that you, you can't.

[00:06:45] Annabel: Really just sell things without becoming a business yourself. So I sat myself up as a sole trader, so this is like the UK regulations. you can either be a sole trader or you can be a company. And I thought, because I'm only small at the moment, I'm just going to stick to being a sole trader.

so yeah, I set up a a business bank account. and so I could keep track of everything on there And I still don't have a website. I just use, InstagramBut

[00:07:10] Annabel: I guess my main angle was to attract attention through Instagram and sell through that.

because especially with the pandemic so many people were so interested in home wear and interiors and being surrounded by beautiful things in their own home. I think with influences as well, like before it was all about fashion. And I think. the pandemic people were taking so many pictures at home, everyone started becoming so much more conscious of their interiors.

[00:07:37] Annabel: that really helped with having an Instagram audience, they were interested in objects that they would have in their homes. so yeah, and my work is very much it blurs art and design. Like I don't think of it as work. That's gonna be. just be in galleries. It's work that I want people to be surrounded by at home.

[00:07:56] Isotta: I think what's really interesting is how you brought up so many different angles that we'd never really covered at school at, you know, at art school at university, the idea of functional art. The. And the intersection with design, which is something that I am recently just incredibly fascinated by , um, the idea of money and selling your work and also the idea of communicating your work and your practice to the world and how I think we learn.

[00:08:22] Isotta: Particularly well, how to discuss our work in an academic context and how to explain it to other artists. But as soon as we had our online degree shows and we were sharing those with our families and our friends and people on the internet, it was really interesting to see how people engaged with the language that we used or the way we explained our work and how there was a disconnect between the way we thought about explaining it and the way people understood it. Yeah.

[00:08:50] Annabel: Yeah, that's such a good point. I think. How you say a university, you learn how to communicate your work with other artists or other people that perhaps are trained in that kind of vocabulary and that kind of way of visual thinking. Whereas most people, myself included, like I'm so interested in this, in depth research behind people's work.

[00:09:11] Annabel: Understand how it can really bring about a different view of their work. However, I'm a visual person. my first thought, when I see a piece of art is what it looks like, and I can't help that. And a lot of people can't help that a lot of people. Judge alt on how it looks or how it makes them feel at first that first impression of it.

I mean, my all is firstly visual but it does have more. In-depth research behind it. So a lot influence comes from minted interiors. So interiors from like the 20th century onwards and picking and choosing imagery from those different decades of style and design.

also I take a lot of influence from film and television. but yeah, you wouldn't necessarily see that. Of course. From just looking at a piece of artwork. I mean, unless you sat down with an artist, a lot of the time, you wouldn't really know the ins and outs of their research. So it's important to have both and to work with both

[00:10:12] Isotta: I think Instagram is a really interesting tool because you know, it's short format, you don't have a lot of words to explain. And I was wondering, how do you think about creating something that's accessible to so many different audiences and you mentioned influence. Does that mean that you reach out to them andyou share your work with them or are you utilizing like hashtags or hashtags in itself is such a, it's one word you get to use to describe your practice. So what word do you pick? I'm just interested to know more about overcoming those challenges from, you know, a post academic context. in terms of influences and hashtags and stuff like that.

[00:10:54] Annabel: So all my notes paid on my phone. I just have a list of hashtags that I copy and paste on to every post. I guess with hashtags, Think is I'll think w if I was looking for something in particular, what would I search on the hashtag feature? So I just have

[00:11:11] Annabel: Sculptural ceramics, contemporary sculpture, art clay, art, modern sculpture, modern art, abstract art, abstract sculpture, VARs, ceramic bars. So they're all the same, really, but that sort of different way of saying the same things so that if someone is looking for that in particular, then hopefully yeah.

[00:11:31] Annabel: I'll search for a similar hashtag. But I think also with the hashtags it's also Instagram's algorithms. So if there's someone that follows a lot of art council of ceramic accounts, folks, your accounts Instagram might pick up my work and put it onto their explore page.

it's just about increasing the odds that someone that might be interested. In your work, stumbles across it. and then you asked about influences. So last year when I first started, I saw my practice as a business and very much, I have a product that I want to sell rather than I'm an artist.

[00:12:10] Annabel: This is what I make. If you want it, you can buy it. so what happened first was the Does this influence of Paul grace? Beverly, I don't know if you know who she is, but she's, she is like a fitness influencer in England.

[00:12:23] Annabel: And she has like a million Instagram followers and she ha was renovating her house and she posted an Instagram story saying, does anyone know of any nice VARs. And my sister saw it and replied saying, oh, my sister makes cool ones. And I have my Instagram one day and I got a message off grace saying, hi, do you sell your visor?

I love to buy one. And she ended up buying three and that was the first person that ever bought them. and hello magazine did an interview with grace Beverley they took photos of her house. And I saw it in the background was my bosses. And it was so crazy because this was literally right at the beginning. I was like, oh my God, I'm in hello magazine. it's not like I was in hello magazine book, literally a glimpse of my balls.

[00:13:12] Annabel: And I was like, oh my God, I've made it. This is it.

[00:13:15] Annabel: that was so lucky. And that really gave me the confidence to pursue this and think, okay, people. I think I gave

[00:13:23] Annabel: away about maybe five or six vases to different influences where I would literally just go on their Instagram and message them. So it would go into a massive requests and just say, Hey, I've been following you for so long. I was just going to see if you were interested in one of my volunteers, I'd love to send one to.

[00:13:41] Annabel: And I would be really picky with who I chose. Like it was always people that I really liked and have been pulling them from a while. And I knew that my work would look good in their photos. and it also, gave me a lot of content for my Instagram. so they would post a picture of, one of my balls in their homes.

[00:14:01] Annabel: And then I had content now that I could then post all tomorrow. I'm really interested in this idea of the product mentality that you bring up

I know that's something that so many artists struggle with and there's a lot of negativity and shame around thinking of building out a product based business, how do you think about maintaining your creative authenticity and generally speaking, how do you recommend people think about building that mentality and does it help you, legitimize yourself and feel more strong about your business?

So you need unlearn this taboo of money and. And you should take pride in it you can let it empower you that you're getting to do what you love, but also make a living from it. And it's such an amazing position to be in that.

why should you be ashamed at what is there to be ashamed of really? it's just like enjoying your job. So yeah, I really want people to unlearn that and just be proud of themselves and proud of being in a position where you're making money from your art. It's a hard position to get to and to be in.

I guess ceramics is one of those things that really does blur the line between art and design and function and object. so I guess that does make it easier. And I think having variety within that is also key I originally designed a few different vases I made molds of them out of plaster which I then use to create multiples of the same piece.

[00:15:30] Annabel: But each one comes out slightly differently. Like each piece is a sort of one-off within itself. So I'll come out really messy and it's just the basic shape. And then I finish each one by hand. I think that's the key, as well as you're making it yourself. it's like an artisan handmade product that you do have the right to charge more for, it's a piece of art.

So I have these repeated pieces.

the mold poured ones, then I also have. my art practice alongside it, where I make one-offs of different vases, which I see as more as my artistic practice. And then I see the mold poured forms as my sort of design line of work that kind of runs alongside it. so I've got that variety within it, and I guess you'd have a variety if you are a painter, but then you also sell prints.

[00:16:18] Annabel: Some of your paintings. So yeah, I guess thinking of it as more of a business model that has art practice within it sort of helps. So that makes sense.

creating a business model that has an art practice within it and has a vehicle to, you know, continually support and expand a practice. That's not necessarily rooted in, you know, money at the end of the day is really probably quite liberating.

[00:16:43] Annabel: Yeah, that's a good way to look at. It really is that everything around the art practice and the business is facilitating you having an art practice. So I guess it's the same as having a part-time job and doing your art practice. It's just blending it all into one. Does that make sense?

[00:17:01] Isotta: Yeah, that's really, really well put out of curiosity. How many vases have you made?

I sold about 30 of the ad dry ones last year. And then it got to about December. And that was when I was like, okay, I'm good. Takes that back from taking orders and I'm going to focus on learning ceramics.

[00:17:20] Annabel: So I think it was in the January when I was still in the midst of really learning a brand got in touch. I'm not allowed to say who it is yet, but it's being, it'll be launched in September. so there are homeware department store and. they emailed me saying they were interested in stocking some of my pieces, a whole sort of collaboration with them.

so obviously I said yes, because I wasn't completely ready. Like I hadn't launched myself yet. I had didn't have my own website and I was just selling through Instagram and I just thought, you know what? You need to just take these opportunities when they come, because they might not come again.

[00:17:59] Annabel: And I knew that I would be ready. so yeah, I just said yes to that. And since then I've just been learning and practicing and building up my stuff. So then so downstairs in my studio, I have 50 vases on the shelves now. and then I've been making sort of one off pieces as well.

[00:18:19] Annabel: I have two, one off pieces that are being sold by the gallery. They're an online gallery based in London called select work. also I'm selling a few pieces through Stefan studio, which are a there are shoppable studio based in London as well.

[00:18:35] Annabel: I guess the variety of people that reached out, Does the stool which is more design led and then there's a gallery as well, which is obviously more fine art. So it shows that you can make work that appeals to both industries.

it's really interesting to see and hear your journey, creating for both worlds. I also wanted to ask, something. Is particularly top of mind these days, the idea of branding. And I know that you have a lot of experience there. So perhaps you could introduce us to how you think about building a brand and the connotations around fine artists, having brands these days.

I wrote my dissertation on how an artist is a brand. And it's interesting because I initially approached the subject. In an almost disdainful way. So from the angle of how all artists are just businesses like, they're not real artists, not thing on right after writing the dissertation and then going into the art.

[00:19:37] Annabel: Well,myself my opinion of it just completely changed. So I was researching mainly Damien Hirst. I just basically saw him as, as an institution, like as a business, rather than an artist himself. I was looking into the history of celebrity because as celebrities. Basically like the original person that is a brand and how a person can embodies something that's so much bigger than them, like their whole feeling, their whole aesthetic and all this kind of thing.

[00:20:09] Annabel: And I was looking at Damien Hurst and how he has this team of studio assistants, which a lot of artists do. where he's essentially the designer and then his assistants make the work so similar to how it would work in a fashion house or an architect designs, a building and the builders build it.

[00:20:30] Annabel: And that's one thing that changed my perspective on it was thinking about how we don't look down on architects. Or the architect gets the credit for designing the building, even though they didn't build it themselves. So why is it any different for an artist?

[00:20:46] Annabel: So if you have an idea, just because somebody else ends up executing it in the end, I don't think that qualifies for you to not get any credit at all and to be looked down on maybe.

it's basically. Spreading your brand and building brand recognition. So having your name here, that collaborating with them, it's increasing the awareness of your name and your brand.

I mean, every artist is a brand because everyone that buys your work. They're not just buying a piece of all the way they're buying into your brand and you've signed the work in it's by you and that they for own a bit of your brand. I don't think it's a bad thing at all anymore. I think is particularly in the art worlds that it can be looked down upon, but if you look at any other design industry, It's completely fine. So why can it not be completely fired up for artists to be a brand?

[00:21:34] Isotta: Yeah, it's really interesting that you. Explain it that way, because in episode five, with Brenner spirit, he has a really interesting explanation about artists and branding explaining that, of course people buy artwork for so many different reasons. One of them being aesthetics and other one being perhaps function.

[00:21:49] Isotta: But when those two are combined That will tap out at a certain price. Likesomeone won't pay more than X amount for that work, unless there is an emotional connection to the piece. And as artists, we always talk about creating an emotional connection with the work and hoping to disseminate a certain feeling in the.

[00:22:10] Isotta: And he explained that feeling as brand I had never made that connection before. and that's something that is so, essential to making artwork and feeling like an artist, it was really interesting to hear. That being explained as what a brand is and that an audience would buy into that brand because of that, like loyalty and that

[00:22:30] Isotta: feeling of association with that person. And just, as you said, people are buying into you, people buying into your brand. It's a really interesting, kind of new definition of what branding is.

[00:22:41] Isotta: Probably so many creatives just have an idea that a brand is I don't know the gap or Waitrose or something, and I'm broadening what branding means and making it work for us rather than feeling, oppressed by these outdated concepts.

The sort of the selling of your work and the buying into, of your work as well. So if you're a very, if you're prolific artist and you're making a lot of work and all of it is related to each other if you have a sort of hierarchy of pricing, within your work that can help to get people to buy into your brand at a lower level.

[00:23:20] Annabel: So there are some people. obviously when we are able to afford the higher end of your pricing scale, but they'll be able to afford the lower end. And so is similar in a way to how you could buy a Chanel headband for a lot cheaper than a Chanel dress. it allows people to feel like they're buying into a brand.

[00:23:43] Annabel: So they're buying some functionality at a way, lower price point than someone buying, buying into our high level. Similar to Damien Hirst would do fashion collaborations. H and M will do a collaboration with a high-end designer. And it allows people to buy into that brand without having to pay.

[00:24:03] Annabel: The price of really buying into that brand. so I think that was a good tip with, if you're trying to turn your art into a business model is to have a hierarchy of pricing so that anyone can buy in on any level.

Talking about it and hearing different experiences is the only way that we're going to be able to learn more and start creating more abundance for all emerging creatives and early career artists. you've mentioned so many amazing stories of success over the past year. but I know that it was incredibly challenging. It must've been incredibly challenging to abandon your three meter sculptors behind in Edinburgh. I certainly felt that way. so could you perhaps tell us about any learning moments this year any setbacks or something that stood out that other artists could relate to.

I mean the obvious one is the end of all university experience and not getting a degree show. But I think in the end that created a lot of opportunity online. and it really made our year group very resilient and we got together and we created this alternative institution called D where we put on our own online degrees show that we were happy with.

we got a billboard in Edinburgh with all of our work on it and yeah, I was really proud of that. Oh, yeah. Group for really coming out of that.

if this organization sounds familiar it's because Louis Lyall also spoke about the creation of Aldi back in episode, one of season.

[00:25:34] Annabel: on a smaller scale though, I think one thing that I really had to learn is you get so obsessed with your work and wanting it to be perfect and the work that I was making, because it was so handmade.

Obviously nothing handmade is perfect and people were buying my work because it looked handmade and you, cause you can buy evolves from H and M homes or home, whatever the everyone else has got. And it's been made in a factory. people can go to those places to buy those kinds of vases. And I was getting really bogged down in the fact that my boss has weren't perfect and they looked handmade and every time I sent one out, I'd get worried that the person wouldn't be happy with it.

[00:26:18] Annabel: you have to really do it. Let go of, I think becomes such a perfectionist. I would just really worry that I'd get an email. I don't like this, even though they'd seen a picture of it and they decided to buy it, I guess I just needed more self belief that what I was making was good and that people liked it.

so I'm still learning that, but I think learning that being an artist means what you're making. Isn't a perfect factory made. I think that's a really important thing to do that I'm still on that I'm still on that learning curve at the moment. Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest one that's affecting me most.

and yeah, I guess the first act of, I can never afford to hire someone, hiring someone that does customer service, but you don't have to face. because when you're making it yourself, you're so immersed in it and you take it so personally when something goes wrong. so being able to be an artist where you make the artwork and then you just send it out and don't have to worry about the perception of it, that'd be a great place to be in.

[00:27:24] Annabel: I think I've just explained, I'm really confused with me, but

I completely relate, especially with this idea of marketing your work. I love making this podcast and I've been having so much fun doing it, but the hardest part for me has been marketing. it's just been such a steep learning curve for me. Also learning in public is something that benefits everyone and just getting over that embarrassment and just moving past to, the next day, because. something we haven't been doing enough of as a community

[00:27:53] Isotta: is just being honest with each other about our own setbacks and accepting that we can learn so much from each other.

[00:28:00] Isotta: So it's been really awesome to hear all your stories and thank you for being so transparent about everything. Maybe to close. We could talk a little bit about, your thoughts on the future. you mentioned all these things that you're working on and how you're hoping to hire someone in the future, which I think is such a great goal.

[00:28:14] Annabel: the future goal would be to not have to make work in my parents' house. the dream would be having a studio where I have other artists working with me as a sort of community studio. That would be amazing. but if I could just carry on doing what I'm doing, then I would be so happy, like having this design line alongside art

[00:28:37] Annabel: practice.

[00:28:38] Annabel: I'm feeling pretty blessed to be doing that right now and hope that I can just continue to keep doing that. if there was one habit or attitude that you could share, with the students who are graduating in 2021 into this very similar situation as we did, what is like a piece of advice?

That you could share with them or an attitude that you'd like to, disseminate into them into the art world, into the creative sphere.

[00:29:05] Annabel: When I was researching for my dissertation, I spoke to one of the professors at Edinburgh, John beagles. and he said something that I thought was really funny and really true. he said you're sat in your studio, waiting for someone to come and discover you, but that's not going to happen.

[00:29:19] Annabel: Is it? So my biggest advice is be obsessed with what you're making, eat, sleep, breathe, everything, all inspiration, make an Instagram account that's for your art or make your Instagram just for your art unfollow people that inspire you for the people whose lives you look at and things. That inspires me.

[00:29:42] Annabel: Like I'm not talking about influences with Sashi calls or anything like that, but artists whose work that you admire follow people, that every time you go on social media, you're inspired and your, and it makes you more driven. don't see Instagram or social media as a bad thing. See it as something that can really help you.

so that you're immersed a lot in sort of your goals really visualize and manifest what you want. I'm a big believer in manifestation. obviously it doesn't work for everyone. I know that, but I think that if you. Everyday, I'll thinking I'm going to get here. I'm going to do this. I'm going to everyday.

[00:30:23] Annabel: I'm going to be obsessed with my work and I'm going to do well. Like people are gonna, people are gonna be interested in my work. Then you will make those necessary steps to get that. I think a lot of people want to be cynical or realistic, but if you're always thinking, oh, it's not going to happen.

[00:30:41] Annabel: Then chances are, you're not going to put in a hundred percent for it to happen. Whereas I think if you think I'm going to do this, like this is gonna, this is gonna be great then. So consciously you're going to making decisions that will put them. yeah, that's my advice. Just basically do it. No, one's stopping you from doing anything apart from you.

Instagram is definitely the best place to follow me, which is just a N a B E L C U C U. That. So just my name out of all the teachers. I've got two pieces launching with select works, which I think it will have launched by the time this podcast comes out. and some pieces of it, staff and studio.

[00:31:23] Annabel: And then I will announce in August, September time, my friend collaboration, which is very exciting. but yeah, that's it.

Thank you for listening to art is season two, episode six. This is a podcast for artists like you and me and I get to make the show freely and independently because of your support without anyone telling me what to do or.

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