Building Your Brand

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Brenner: why do artists get big? you know, where do they come from? Who makes those decisions? curators, I know have a lot of power. Like how do they get that power? How do they keep that power? What's kind of the dynamics.

my name is Brenner sphere. I live in Austin, Texas now for the last five years, I've lived in San Francisco, working at. tech startups and mostly have, dealt with things not really related to art. So I would say the closest stuff to art that I work on in my job is with product design minors that, want to figure out what the app is trying to do and make that as, as clear as possible. which I think can often be very different from art that is, trying to make you think more than trying to make you not have to think.

This is art is a podcast for artists where we visualize the future of the art world and the creative industry.

This season, we are revisiting the topics and ideas introduced in season one through conversations with emerging artists, creative change makers and leaders from beyond the art realm in the tech industry design world and startups. The mission of art is, has been to encourage emerging artists, students, and early career creatives to seek out possible futures for the art world.

One where our creative ambitions and professional needs are met this monumental, but essential task will only progress. If we look to strategies and innovations from beyond our comfort zones, only when we look outside of the traditional art world and start breaking down barriers.

between creative disciplines. Will we start building a better, more inclusive art industry

Today. I'm speaking with Brenner spear, a product manager and software. Brenner has some really interesting ideas on the unique economics of fine art. He connects the history of art collecting as a status symbol to NFTs explaining how they are the first use case for crypto.

we share thoughts on the challenges of creative authenticity online and Brenner explains why artists should build brands, not to commodify their art practices, but rather to build a strong, independent, and consistent emotional connection between their work and their supporters, clients, and fans. We conclude by talking about the metaverse and the exciting implications it has for creator based community development and the striking conceptual overlap there is with burning man.

Our conversation is thought provoking and expansive. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. before we start, I just wanted to ask a quick favor. When you have a minute, can you please leave? Art is a rating and review. It really helps others find the show.

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[00:02:41] Brenner: Being interested in understanding what art.

[00:02:43] Brenner: means to people as I've been involved in crypto since 2016 not as a job necessarily, but just investing in crypto and reading about it and really understanding what these new building blocks are that we've created. and

I would say like November ish of 2020 I started to read more and more about NFTs, a non fungible token is basically. proof that you own a digital file awarded to you by some authority, like the person that made it and says you own the only copy or one of 10 copies of this piece of art.

and of course, It's a digital file. So anyone can look at that piece of art. Anyone can copy that piece of art. I think the best real-world corollary is there might be up our gallery that has a piece hanging and anyone can come see it, but there's a plaque that says who owns that piece.

and anyone can take a picture of that piece. Anyone can get a replica made of that piece, but Owning that piece carries some amount of weight. And I would really say carries some amount of status within a given community

[00:03:51] Brenner: of people that care about that that status. so when I started to see what I would say is like the first real use of crypto of people actually deriving value out of crypto. A lot of crypto so far has been defy, decentralized finance and any type of finance. is just a means to an end finance itself. Doesn't actually do anything. The first use of finance was to pay.

[00:04:16] Brenner: If you give me seeds on loan, I will then pay you back. Once the crops come to fruition and then I can pay you back. And so finance got started for something else. In that same sense. All of defy within crypto is only a means to an end, there literally not been any ends yet.

so I think NFTs are the first end in this that they actually Have value in the same way that someone buying an art piece that then goes on display somewhere has value that person that bought it gets value out of Funding that artist for the sake of showing people that they care about this type of art for the sake of having their name on it. So other people know their name for the sake of the artists, knowing who they are, because they bought that piece and knowing their name. and so seeing the first like real value. Of crypto gotten me really excited

[00:05:07] Brenner: there's many beginnings, but this is like a specific beginning in the sense that crypto is providing value. And that got me to go read more about how the fine art market has worked And to try to understand that better

[00:05:22] Isotta: I think that the parallel that you draw between NFTs and kind of the history of the traditional fine art market is really fascinating. I personally haven't ever thought about it in that sense before. and I'd love to hear more about that.

[00:05:33] Isotta: I know in your personal blog, your sub stack, you have written a little bit about it. maybe you could share part of that story with us.

so when I first started reading about the center T stuff, I started reaching out to some of my art friends. one, his name is Brett Deemer. We ended up talking on the phone for like an hour about it. And I was like, how does this art market work?

why do artists get big? where do they come from? Who makes those decisions? curators, I know have a lot of power. Like how do they get that power? How do they keep that power? What's kind of the dynamics.

[00:06:03] Brenner: and he suggested, I go read this book called Duveen which was about Lord Joseph.

[00:06:07] Brenner: Duveen the third Who is one of the most influential art dealers of all time. born in late 18 hundreds, slipped into the 19 hundreds around the industrial age. bankers, et cetera, we're making a ton of money and they started to buy art. and so he ended up brokering a lot of based art over to the U S where there's people to have a lot of money to spend.

andhe controlled a lot of that. He was very good at letting people know, oh, this is valuable, this isn't. and you know, these are people that know a lot about business, but don't necessarily know a lot about art And so, um, he could kind of dictate what was considered valuable versus not at what point he said I don't want my clients to get used to buying new art there's way too much of it. and with old art, you know, with the artists being dead. You can't make any more of it. So that scarcity is built in a, with artists that still are alive, they can just keep painting or keep sculpting.

[00:07:09] Brenner: And so, you know, if everyone could have one, then it doesn't mean much anymore. and sothe whole point is that oh, Only the top art collectors have pieces from certain artists and there's certain pieces where, there's only that piece and like to own that piece was a big deal.

and it was an even bigger deal if it came from Duveen pieces would start to be called like, oh, that's a, Duveen He didn't make it. And he, at some point owned it, but then, sold it to someone else. But the fact that it flowed through him meant, it had value in him being the broker for it, it bestowed more value on it.

and I think a lot of these Concepts will transfer over to NFTs or digital art in general. and I think a lot of it is about status overall thatyou like will want, if you're a client of Davines, that's a big deal compared to someone else that he only brings us on, certain clients and over time he would.

there's other people that want to buy certain art from him and he's oh, no, like you're not allowed to buy that yet. you don't have any art, like it can't just sit there in your house by itself, it'll, that will decrease the value of that art.

one of the things that came up was this idea of functional and aesthetic art, being a status symbol.

This especially intersects with creative forms like fashion as Brenner explains, but as an artist working primarily in sculpture, I think there's more to it for us too. especially the idea of signaling a certain type of person or group of people as a way of creating a loyal community that will support you I think overall there's like, there's a lots of reasons to buy art. I'm sure most people listening to this have bought art before that they like, that looks nice and they put on their shelf or whatever, but not that many have bought. Art that is expensive where you're like, whoa, am I really about to spend X percent of my salary on a piece of art? At that point, it's more about the statement that you're buying that piece Of course you can like how it looks, but there's more to it than just, oh, I like how this looks.

[00:09:21] Brenner: part of the reason that you bought it is to convey something to the people that,notice it People might have a negative connotation with that. but I think it's, to convey, oh, this is the type of stuff that I'm into.

[00:09:33] Brenner: maybe it also means that you might listen to this type of music or something like that. It's to convey more about you through the decisions you make which is why I like fashion so much is because it's literally on you it immediately portrays some of that to other people.

the only brand that I've ever actually cared about is this brand called jibberish.

[00:09:55] Brenner: That's a ski brand and I grew up skiing a lot. And in the ski community, people know what chipper is. And if you see someone wearing it, you're like, oh, that person knows what's up. And so I guess that's really the only community that I've ever been a part of that I wanted to signal. but I think that, lots of people do that across a lot of communities.

it's interesting that you bring up the brand idea because nowadays with social media and artists really using Instagram, as one of the major means to communicate their work and show their practice with the world. The idea of, becoming a brand is very important in a sense.

I'm not sure if that's a positive thing or a negative thing. it's an interesting moment to be at this like digital, physical crossroads. And

[00:10:38] Isotta: it's definitely something that we don't discuss in a traditional art school environment. I think having. A brand is super important. And whether that brand is you as a person, like your brand is your name, or you create your brand under a pseudonym, or you create your brand as something that'slike the way that clothing brands have made up names.

is like my friend Isabelle has mixed pottery is ceramicist and her brand is soul matter studios. And that's like her brand now so matter. and so I think that there are pros and cons to each of those. there's options under your name, under a pseudo name, under a brand name.

you're selling art, whether that be sculptures or pottery or paintings or like anything, there is a certain amount of function. There was something concerned like a coaster or a certain amount of how good something can look on your shelf.

it looking good or functioning as a thing. there's a price level that it tops out at. and for anyone to pay more than that price. They aren't just buying that piece of art for how it looks or functions. They are buying it for their emotional connection to that brand and what them owning that brand says about them.

I hope that all artists. Understand that, and don't I guess, shy away from that or, think of it as like a necessary evil or something. I'm not really sure. I guess what motivates artists to create art? I'm sure the answer varies wildly on the scale.

but. I would think that part of it is to Curry them an emotional connection with the people that see the art and buy the art. and so I think that creating a brand gives a pathway to do that. what you make and how you. show off your brand and how you communicate it and show it to people and where you show it to people and communicate something about that brand that then people feel connected with and make them want to buy that art.

how do you see that question of like authenticity, playing into

[00:12:44] Isotta: the whole sphere?

[00:12:45] Brenner: Yeah. So that makes me think of something. My friend Seamus once said, which is that artists are the most selfish people that they make art for themselves. And they don't care if anyone else likes it, they're making it because they like it. And that bank, GIRs and consultants, et cetera, are actually.

the most selfless people, because they're doing something that other people pay them so much for, someone else wants their work and they want it a lot. And so they'll pay them a lot for it. And so they'll make that transaction happen and that artists, they make art, because they like what they're making and

[00:13:24] Brenner: Maybe sometimes they change what they're doing to some extent so that other people will like it. But I think that on the topic of authenticity, it's like, I make this art because I like how this looks or I've used this technique and I enjoy doing something new that creates something new.

[00:13:42] Brenner: And if other people like it great. and I think what the internet has done is done , uh, many, many things, but one is that you can fine. Your, of people or people that you kind of think the same way with they're like the same thing, or like the same humor banter much more easily than you could before, because there's billions of people on the internet now.

[00:14:02] Brenner: So before you're in your little town, you make some art or maybe no one. in the 500 people that are in your town, or even the 20,000 people really like what you have to make, they don't vibe with it at all, but on the internet, out of the billions of people, there's probably 5,000 people that like what you're making.

There's lots of different ways to find those 5,000 people or 10,000 people but it'sit still takes work to find those, but I think it starts with just putting outwhat you create for them, for people to come find it.

and I think there's lots of ways. I've recently bought some stuff on Etsy and, I'm searching, like I wanted a wooden shelf, like a floating shelf to drill into my wall to put some fun. And so I went to Etsy and I was like, okay, Floating would live ed shelf.

[00:14:48] Brenner: And there's a bunch of that come up and there are these gorgeous selves and these people make them themselves. And so I ended up buying one fromsome guy in Canada and it's amazing. And it's that's what he loves doing. And I bet he can't sell enough of them just in Canada or just in the town that he's in.

but just putting that online, there's enough people looking for that, that he can make a living doing that. And so I think there's never been a better time to be authentic because one people can tell when you're not being authentic and sometimes you can get away with not being authentic or being partly authentic for a long time and live your whole life that way.

but I think. The most people can tell when you're not being authentic. And also at this point in time, it is never been easier to find stuff that you like or find people that like your stuff. And so I think that putting out your call in the most authentic way will.

attract people that are on the same wavelength as you. and there's tactically, there's lots of different ways to do that at sea being one way. and often that's what trips people up is like, well, I've been posting my art online for forever and like, no, one's. no, one's finding it.

okay , well, have you been posting the same place all the time? have you not explored, you know, there's the tactical part is often what kind of scares people. But I think that, you know it, and it does definitely take some effort to, okay, where are other places I could put this, that people might like it.

I also think that's why tick talk is like that the AI that they have for the feed is freaking ridiculous. people can post super niche stuff and it. Tosses it out to some people to see who likes it. it does the best job of anything in the world that I know of right now, finding the people that are into that thing.

but I think that over time we'll see more and more stuff like that for all different types of things I think that just like short form video is the. easiest to do because it's so consumable and people can watch a ton of them, et cetera.

how do you see these more social platforms where it's very interactive? Give intersecting with more kind of futuristic stuff like the metaverse and digital worldsdecentral land and these things that are propping up all things will sort of lead to the metaverse and by metaverse, I mean, what you see in ready player one, which is a book and movie, and then in the movie, the matrix, which is basically a. Simulated world in which you can fully immerse yourself in. And the matrix you're all the way jacked in all five senses work.

you can't even tell if you're in the matrix or not ready player one. It's just like you put on a VR headset and a body suit. And. it feels pretty close to the real world, but it's, it's not, you can just pull your headset off. but in general, a lot of the rules about the real world, don't apply anymore in the sense that, you know, know, you can and changed the gravity

[00:17:49] Brenner: But I think more interesting that like space is no longer. Like, you know, I'm in New York. in the metaverse you can just jump from New York to Rome or Tokyo immediately, and they'll just be new cities that pop up in the metaverse And, you know, city's big, but just think about a club or a bar we are spinning this up. We've created the visuals and the space to look a certain way and it's this size. And like these amount of people can come in andto be admitted either you have to just pay a certain amount of money or what I think is a lot more interesting is.

[00:18:26] Brenner: You have to have earned the right to come in here, be a top 1% listener of, you know, the artists on Spotify. And like all the people all around the world are invited to their special show in the metaverse. If you're a top 1% listener and you couldn't really do that.

in the real world, the 1%, top listeners are all around the world and maybe there's enough in New York to justify having a show, or you could say, okay, everyone fly in. that's a much bigger barrier than saying, okay, we're having in the metaverse top 1% of listeners show up.

[00:19:00] Brenner: And I bet that show would have the best energy out of any of their shows ever, because. All the fans that are really big fans. in some of these other things like friends with benefits, which is a Dowdecentralized autonomous organizationbasically like people all.

[00:19:17] Brenner: By tokens to then be able to be part of this.

[00:19:20] Brenner: organization that then you can join a specific discord and be able to talk to the other people. It's a mix between like interest based and values based community that all care about something, all of them care about crypto to some extent and culture.

and I'm sure they have like a manifesto or mission or something that they say that they care most about. And like, That's the type of people they want to join. more and more of these will start to pop up as communities. and That people will feel more connected to these communities.

[00:19:50] Brenner: Then they feel to ones that they are physically a part of. The only physical thing that comes to mind that maybe could have, a parallel to that is like burning man culture and the core value systems, the barrier to entry to get there. and you know, also I guess the interest in kind of culture, but also alternative finance.

what do you think about that idea?

[00:20:12] Brenner: I've been to burning man in the last seven years that it's been going on. It's not happening this year. It didn't happen last year there. and yeah, I agree that it is very much. Values based. I love the barrier to entry to get there. you're like, okay, you have to be able to take care of yourself in the desert for a week.

you bring your own food and water and shelter and everything. AndI really liked a lot of the value stuff, bringing man in one of. The values I care about most is sovereignty and self-reliance, there's ways that you can go, that you don't have to be self-reliant, but most people there are at some, you know, a much higher bar of self-reliance than people just out and in the real world. And so I appreciate that. but yeah, you're right. That I'm trying to think of other groups that of come together, that people put so much time and energy into. but what's interesting is I there's actually, there are some like digital spaces for burning man people to hang out in. And like this past year they did a virtual burn, which I didn't attend.

there's definitely something about in person coming together. That until we get to matrix level will not be the same as coming together part of that is my personal bias of really liking to be with people in person. Some people feel more comfortable with people in a digital space, whether that be just text-based or in a chat room or, on a discord call or something more so than being in person.

but I think in general, humans are social creatures and the amount of. Information that gets communicated in an in-person setting compared to a digital setting the fidelity is way higher. any community that I start online, I definitely want it to be a in-person component also.

I actually got to go to burning man in 2018, I made a sculptural installation for it, and it was one of the funniest things I've ever

[00:22:07] Brenner: Oh, wow. Awesome.

maybe you even saw it

[00:22:10] Brenner: Yeah.

the best place to find me is on Twitter at Brenner's sphere.

you can also find Brenner sub stack@themettaversuscomingdotsubstack.com.

It's also linked in the episode description.

Thank you for listening to art is season two, episode five. This is a podcast for artists and I get to make the show freely and independently because of your support without anyone telling me what to do or to say I make it because I too, I'm an emerging artist and care about the future of our industry and want to work hard to make it better. So if you want to support what I do here at the show, you can donate through the link in the episode description.

Thanks. I really appreciate. You can also visit the art as bookshop through the links in the episode description for a selection of creative and professional development resources. Thank you to this week's guest Brenner spear for sharing your knowledge with us and as always thank you for listening.

See you soon.