Art in the Virtual Space

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Erik: Traditionally have that idea, that starving artists. And I think the new ways that crypto. Oh, you know, these tools like NFTs are being created are ways to help artists from all parts of the art realm monetize their work and, earn a living.

[00:00:17] Erik: And I think a lot of times people aren't trying to be the next billionaire Like I want to create what I want to create. And build this, you know, goodness into the world, but also, not trying to figure out where my next meal is at and have a sustainable living.

This is art is a podcast where we visualize the future of the art world. This season, we are revisiting the topics and ideas introduced in season one Through conversations with industry leaders, emerging artists and creative change-makers.

Today, we are having our first in a series of conversations with industry experts from beyond the art world.

By this, I mean, leaders in the tech space, the startup world and other industries where creativity is integral, but operates in different ways. It was wonderful connecting with Eric Huckle and discussing everything from monetization in the creative economy with NFTs to his perspective on the metaverse and this idea of a digital twin linking physical objects to cyber worlds.

he explains complex technologies very clearly for us like Bitcoin, Ethereum, web two and three, and shares insight into the opportunities artists have in shaping the creative Canon of the evolving internet.

At the end of the episode, Eric recounts a memorable experience encountering participatory art.

So stick around for that. I hope you enjoy this expansive and enriching conversation as much as I did.

I'm Eric Huckle. I'm currently in Austin. Texas I was in the us military for awhile and I've lived in Southeast Asia and Japan , uh, the middle east all around the us. And then I transition to the business world through an MBA at Texas. I started a company out of there around robotics and then , uh, moved to Amazon to work on a product called Amazon.

[00:02:01] Erik: Go. Did my own startup, which failed during the pandemic, which is a fun story itself. and now I'm at a company called SailPoint where I'm doing a cybersecurity and identity. I think other than that, yeah, so I love the outdoors out here, loves skiing. And in my free time, I like mentoring some other startups in town and I work on a nonprofit for.

crowdfunding teachers.

[00:02:23] Isotta: one of the major issues that. We're all dealing with at the moment is this idea of the scarcity mentality, how there's only a few opportunities out there.

some residencies. a few, you know, different exhibitions that we can apply to. And especially because of the pandemic with so many things on hold or just outright canceled, it's . Been really challenging to, continue applying to so many things when you realize that, Thousands of people are also going after these, few spots.

[00:02:51] Isotta: So it's really interesting to think about, moving away from these gatekeepers andstarting to take some control and ownership over your own creation.

[00:02:59] Erik: I'm not an artist and I'm not from that world, but I think all the value that artists create in the world a lot of times doesn't come or accrue to the hardest.traditionally there's been gatekeepers, so publishers, sometimes agents, but the folks that kind of say this art is good, and if it's not, or it doesn't meet that bar or wherever that gatekeeper is, the artist is turned away. so I think in the traditional space, just very generally there's artists.

[00:03:30] Erik: Probably agents, galleries, publishers, and then the general public and artists have needed those gatekeepers to reach all of those folks. YouTube and Instagram have turned into these ways where you as a creator can get around some of those gatekeepers. But there's not really phenomenal way to monetize your work on some of those platforms.

[00:03:53] Erik: And a lot of times you can be de platformed or demonetize for reasons that may or may not be in your control. And I think we're starting to head to is a way that artists can not only avoid those gatekeepers. but a way to. Find those fans and, have a way to create this engagement with them. That gets people really excited about that artist.

and there's this idea of a thousand true fans and there's a couple of posts on the internet about it.

[00:04:24] Erik: You can find it pretty easily, but it's the idea that to earn a sustainable living, as an artist or creator. if you have 1000 fans that are just really engaged and excited about what you're building, if you use the tools to properly monetize that you can really do well for yourself and have a sustainable lifestyle.

[00:04:43] Erik: And I think a lot of times people aren't trying to be the next billionaire for an artist. Like I want to create what I want to create. And build this, goodness into the world, but also, not trying to figure out where my next meal is at and have a sustainable living. how I see it is or my experience with it is that there's some hardest such as one to create this kind of their contribution to the world. They don't care.

[00:05:06] Erik: You know who sees it, but it's for them and that's kind of their contribution. I think there's another type of artist that wants to create, to have a specific effect or an impact on people or get across a message. and then maybe there's another type of artists that just, maybe wants to create commercial art, or for space to look.

[00:05:25] Erik: Pretty or, make it look better. and so it's interesting. I think the startup mentality is maybe in that second and a third one, because how you think about as a startup is that you've got an idea. You want to test it quickly and validated, and then. If it works based on testing users, almost like a series of science experiments that works, then you want to build it out more, continue to test it and refine it as you go.

[00:05:52] Erik: And so for an artist that just Hey, I just want to build this for myself. Maybe they don't care what the outside world thinks as much. good on them. I'd probably don't have as much advice for that. But for someone that is really thinking about the impact it has on people, or even just, can I sell this commercially?

[00:06:07] Erik: I think setting that up as a series of tests is super interesting. I can imagine just like a more private showing of different ways to portray something, to get some immediate feedback or friends. But I think that's very much in line of startup thinking. And, we talked before this about how I think the line of artists and creators blend.

[00:06:26] Erik: In the software space where you're trying to create an experience for someone either so they can understand what's going on or use it. and so I think there's like the artist in the very traditional sense, but then the artist in a startup sense where you're building a world for them or for the user or the customer.

so I think there's startup mentality for artists and then there's actually startups with the artists. Embedded into it, and that is helping develop that baker project. initially, I'm just fascinated to hear a little bit about, your own experience with the kind of testing model. I'm pretty much doing that myself right now with this podcast. I'm just putting it out there to see and getting, some really exciting responses from the audience.

Because often with artists, I feel we don't always have the confidence to share our work with the world immediately.

We keep it to ourselves or we're more insular. And then when the time comes to, share it with our peers or with the world, or with, potential buyers or collectors, maybe we don't get the response we wanted because we're not capable of being as vulnerable with our work.

[00:07:28] Erik: Yeah, no, I think that it's maybe not just artists that are, feel very vulnerable at something like that as Well, I think even as a product manager, when you put something together and oh, I know that customer or the user is gonna. I love this. And then I get it. I don't understand it. This doesn't fit my problem.

[00:07:45] Erik: And this is basically worthless and that is also devastating. I can maybe imagine an artist having made that's more impactful if there are, gets shot down. But I think the way you think about it is that your creating a hypothesis, like a science experiment. And you're gonna say I think when the user's problem, like the core thing that the user has is to solve this problem.

[00:08:10] Erik: And I understand that because I've talked to a whole bunch of different types of people, so I'm going to design an experiment to test it. This is actually the case. And so sometimes you're not building out the whole thing. I think what you just described as an artist is you spend a lot of time creating one piece of.

[00:08:27] Erik: Art, and then you put it out there and the person is I don't like it or I do like it. And so I wonder, and this has maybe I'll put this back on you a little bit. Is there a way to break down art into smaller pieces and to vet those pieces before they come up into the whole?

[00:08:46] Erik: Or does that kind of destroy. The art or like the image, because sometimes when I think about art and we had talked about this a little bit, but it's, as, you know, as a consumer of art, we see something you have maybe a really powerful feeling or you understand something more clearly. and I wonder if you can ever break those down into smaller parts and test them before they go into the bigger hole.

[00:09:09] Erik: Maybe that's not even really a feasible way to do it. Be interesting to think of how you'd think about that.

the first thing mind is that we kind of do that. but at art school, so we have a crit, where. Present your work, which is a work in progress to your peers and to your professors. And often it's, what's called a silent crit. So you don't even get to explain the work.

[00:09:28] Isotta: You just present it there. And then for 30 minutes, everyone discusses it. And then at the end you get to, maybe. Conclude or something like that. I think I may have heard of a crib that I didn't put that together, but there is this idea. And I think sometimes the software word is a little bit ahead of some industries, think once these industries start thinking about how software has gotten for it is I think they might try and take some parts about it and see if it makes sense for that specific industry.

[00:09:55] Erik: And I wonder when you think about a crit or when you've talked about it, there is this idea, even a website called product hunt, where you put your idea out there and then people would just voted. And whether it's interesting or I had mentioned that the nonprofit that I'm a part of, it's like a crowdfunding for teachers, school supplies, and a lot of times you validate a startup idea by getting a customer to put money behind it.

[00:10:19] Erik: And in like crowdfunding, if you raise the amount of money you're trying to raise, you know, that you have customers out there, like they've already committed money to you. And so I wonder if you digitized a crit and you had either an artist community of other artists, or even consumers like myself, that could go in and say, oh man, I love where you're heading with this direction.

[00:10:42] Erik: Like I read maybe a quick story on it, or maybe there's no story. And I want to see you build this art out more and I'm ready to either sponsor you or I'll buy a print of this. But that is one of those ways that I think an artist could get earlier validation of what they're doing.

[00:11:01] Erik: If they continue their craft.

like I'm writing this LinkedIn post I was talking about and I reached out to an artist on Fiverr. Which I'm not sure if you know that platform, but it's super fun and collaborative for me to be like, I want to commission some small piece just for this post.

this is the idea that you can kind of work with an artist quickly to put something together. And I think it's interesting if you know where to find certain artists. And I think right now in Austin, one of my favorites. deals and it was closed during the pandemic is like it's called the east Austin studio tour.

[00:11:32] Erik: And all these artists just open their houses up show their art. And if you don't know what they're doing or don't know, you know what the art looks like. It's hard for you as a consumer to get involved. But this one is like this whole different piece or you build a relationship with them.

[00:11:47] Erik: Talk to them about what they have. and so I just wonder, like how you can extend your reach or get into more places and artists without those gatekeepers. and it seems like there is some communities digitally that really helped do that.

[00:11:58] Erik: it's really interesting and exciting to think about working on more collaborative art projects in the future and learning from my peers as well, which I think is something that Doesn't often happen in, in the art industry yet because first of all, just the barriers between different creative disciplines, but also just the norm of, you know, trying to keep your, your work secret so that someone else doesn't steal your idea Think the really interesting part about the blockchain and this is where those NFTs come into place. It's called provenance and where you can basically stamp your work and put your unique signature on it, and basically gives you a place in time where.

[00:12:33] Erik: Eric created this piece of art at this time, it's almost like a watermark on it.

[00:12:39] Erik: Um, and then the, I guess, idea, when you talk about. Um, it's really competitive or you don't want someone stealing your work? artists can use some of the features of the blockchain that, know, I think traditionally you'd have to hunt down. who used your art, what publication, who always see money. And there's ways that I think are going to evolve more seamless in the future for , uh, every time someone uses my piece, it's just automatically the money goes to me, it's just coded into the blockchain for that to happen.

[00:13:05] Erik: And so I wonder if this is going to help move the art world from being more secretive. And kind of, you know, covert in some ways to open that, just having things that you create just out there. And it's very obvious who created it when and who's using it. And I think that might be a really interesting shift for the art world.

[00:13:25] Isotta: One of the things I was keen to ask Eric about was to give us a broad overview of which cryptocurrencies we should pay attention to. And why

I think there's at a very basic level. the kind of two big names in crypto is Bitcoin. Which I like to think of, which is just digital gold. Like it doesn't do that much. I think it's a pretty good store value, but I don't think a lot of very exciting things are going to be built around Bitcoin in the near future.

[00:13:50] Erik: Um, Ethereum is I think a little bit more versatile cryptocurrency and there's tons out there now, but we think of the early type of cryptocurrencies And Ethereum has some tools in it.

[00:14:02] Erik: And one of the really interesting pieces of Ethereum is they have, are what are called smart contracts. And so normally when you have a legal contract, there's lawyers involved on a paperwork, a lot of time spent detailing.

[00:14:16] Erik: What's going to go on in the contract. And in theory, them a lot of that is already coded out and you and another party can just. make the changes to what you want to seethe piece of Ethereum is that it gives you more tools to this idea of web three. And so I had mentioned I was going to describe it earlier, but web three is basically a open. Trustless and permissionless network, open being developers work on it in public and everyone can contribute to it.

trustless being, people can interact with each other in a public way without a trusted third party, like a lawyer or the courts. and then permissionless in that, I think a lot of the crypto and our kids love this part, but there's not any like government involved with it. And so I think it just gives you some interesting toolsfor the people that are very curious or just like to experiment, I think.

[00:15:10] Erik: A lot of folks are waiting for the artists to pour in and just figure out what we can do with this stuff, other than just the boring kind of legal contracts and financial instruments. So I think it's a really kind of fun time.

[00:15:22] Isotta: Wow. So that's really exciting. And how do you, see this kind of dichotomy between the old and the new moving forward with something as interesting and complex as web three, do you think that the kind of big players are just going to swoop in or is it going to remain independent.

[00:15:38] Erik: No, I think there's always this idea that maybe we can shake off, like the old power there'll be something completely fresh. I don't think that's maybe really reasonable and there'll always be. Some version of the old power structure is coming into the new, but I think something that's really exciting about this is that a lot of the pieces that are in like the web two world and web two is Cloud mobile and social.

[00:16:05] Erik: So like Facebook is king in this space, but Facebook doesn't do that. Well, if you can export all the information that's on Erik, like all my friends, if you can put that in any startup, they lose their hold and their power in that space. It's it's called like a walled garden. And so w web three is doing, is just busting everything wide open, everything's open, everything's being done in public.

and so a lot of the power that some of those kind of big companies have is they're going to have to compete in a space that's just very different from where they've operated. So not to say that they won't come in and figure out a way to be successful. I think that'd be unreasonable, but I think it's the wild west right now.

[00:16:49] Erik: And people still haven't really figured out how to use all of these tools super successful yet. so I think there's a lot of space here for people create. And I think there's only been a few big projects , like,NBA, top shots or CryptoKitties that have found like a ton of consumer adoption. And that to me means that there's still a lot out there to either build or innovate on.

and they're just like a lot of room left, if that makes sense.

[00:17:18] Isotta: so is the metaverse part of web three?

yes. And I think the metaverse, I don't know if you want to explain that at all, but I'm trying to remember that game. It was like a ready player. One. but it was like the recent movie by Spielberg. Grichnik, they're all like fighting it out in the digital world.

[00:17:36] Erik: I think that's probably a good example, right? Like there's the physical world. And then there is a digital version of that, Books I would recommend is also a book called snow crash, which is amazing. The talks about it. Neuromancer is another interesting one, but it's basically just a digital version of the physical world and it doesn't have to be a one to one.

[00:17:58] Erik: Uh, You know, kind of recreations, but there's companies like roadblocks pretty exciting company and users can build and create things inside this like metaphors or this environment, and they can sell them to other. Users. And so you can basically make money in their currency by creating and selling like your art, whether it's a hat or like, you know, a handbag or whatever it is.

I think the underpinnings of a metaverse are. those things I talked about before, it's like that trustless way to have either contracts with peopleyou know, where things came from, like it's called provenance of, I know who created it.

[00:18:41] Erik: I know every person that's owned in between. And so a lot of these concepts are going to play really well with metaphors because basically structured in a way thatMetaverse can be organized in a coherent way. I think right now there's still some of the web to parts of it. but yeah. Do you think that it's going to be those two are gonna be interplay really well.

[00:19:01] Isotta: it's interesting to think about how provenance is also so important in an art and especially in art history knowing where things come from and knowing how they move through time. And it's really interesting to think about that in the digital world. How do you see like other physical world things?

[00:19:19] Isotta: Moving online. that's something that I'm really interested in. to give you an example, Over the past year during COVID, everything was closed. So there was no exhibitions as well. So even my final year show, which I had been working on for many months and is the buildup to the end of your art school career, that was moved online.

[00:19:36] Isotta: And that was the first time that had ever happened in the history of my university. And that's what happened to all exhibitions across the world. and I know that the metaverse provides a really interesting new viewing experience, but as we move forward Into post pandemic times, hopefully. do you see , like, virtual reality or augmented reality coming into play So I have two things here, so there's this and I was in that LinkedIn post. I may share it with you, but it's this idea of a digital twin I think is really interesting. And so what this idea is that there's something that exists in the physical world and that there is a exact creation of that in the digital world.

[00:20:15] Erik: And I think in this post, that written there is this. GE had done it with their turbines. And so you could run the same turbine. That is a hundred percent, you know, re created in the digital world in tune it , um, you know, as it like degrades in the world. And so they would see sometimes oh, Hey.

[00:20:33] Erik: This thing that we're running digitally is having some problems here. You should check it in the real world there. And the reason I say this is that I think there's going to be a one-to-one connection, maybe between stuff in the real world and stuff in the digital world. but if you have a sculpture, then maybe if there's a 3d component to that, Maybe there is some version of that where it's just, Hey, thank you, Zach, to version of it.

[00:20:57] Erik: And the physical world is in the digital world in like a VR type thing, you can around it. You can see like the scale of it. but I almost would push it back to you a little bit and try and think of like, what is the artist trying to get across? what is the feeling or the message.

[00:21:17] Erik: And so. You know, if there's a, something in the physical world that they just want to recreate, one-to-one in the digital world. That's one thing. But I think work artists are going to do some really exciting pieces. It's like, you know, is there smells that you want to get across or is there like different lights or sounds and having maybe even a more interactive experience or whatever they want to get across?

I've got some pretty funny stories. I could tell you about some like more. experimental studios. I was in, in New York, but I still think about like that experience that our created that was like unexpected, but I was kind of fun. And I, I still talk to people about it. I was like, I can't believe that they did this thing.

[00:22:02] Erik: And I just had this very distinct feeling about it. So I think this is one of the places that artists are going to be, the people that are innovating once they figure out and get more comfortable with the tools, just like a paint brush, whatever that version looks like in the digital world. I think the artists are going to do some really exciting things that then the software world will be like, oh, this was really cool.

[00:22:22] Erik: We got to start using this. And the artists will be pushing the threshold. If that makes sense.

So interesting. You bring that up because I was just about to ask you about what you were thinking about no code and Because the no code tool revolution and all that stuff that's happening right now because I actually work in sculpture. And last week I was in an exhibition in London with some of my peers.

[00:22:42] Isotta: And, you know, one of the things that we realized was, okay this is a physical space. It has, It's limits. I wish that, there was a darker space so that I could have my work be, artificially lit or I wish that there would be natural light here, or this wall was taller. Any of the, limitations of working in a physical gallery, which every artist definitely understands and moving forward and thinking about, That turbine that exists on the, in the digital world and how you can interact with it as if it were a physical object.

[00:23:08] Isotta: I really look forward to the day that, I could put on a VR headset and explore a sculpture that's in the actual ideal environment that artist had imagined for it to be. And if that could include smell, that would just be mind blowing. So do you think that. To get to that point, we're going to all have to become software engineers or the no code is moving fast enough for us to eventually get there, you know, within the next, I don't know, five, 10 years.

[00:23:36] Erik: By the way I wonder if you could even take it a step further instead of like, Your digital creation. The sculpture is not just in the gallery with different lighting, but it's like in a cave with candlelight and there's like pools of water in the caves, you walk and there's maybe bats.

[00:23:53] Erik: I'm like I don't know exactly what your piece is, but it's like, what is the exact environment that this belongs in to get across the feeling of that art versus man, I really just don't like how this light plays on this. I wonder how many levels deeper you could get with that.

[00:24:07] Erik: And if that is part of the experience like that sounds really fine. so I think the no-code piece is interesting because a lot of that is to build websites or software now for folks. Maybe like myself or it's actually, for even maybe less technical people. And I think that's one of the things I would start exploring if you're an artist now just see what's out there.

but I also think that some of these environments, these companies like Robox or whoever builds these parts and I'm throwing out a lot of terms on this podcast, but there's this idea of primitives that I love. And it's the idea that it's the smallest part. That you can give to someone to build whatever they need.

[00:24:50] Erik: So for AWS, which is like Amazon's web servers, they gave developers these things called primitives, just basically computing power and storage. And we're like, all right, go ahead and build whatever you need. So, developers in my mind were like the artists that you're talking about now, or people gave him the tools and they built all these things like serve all these different needs.

[00:25:14] Erik: And all of these, like even very niche things. and so I wonder for the artists community, if there is going to be a better way to give them these tools or primitives, so it's like, Hey, do you want to build the environment? help sculpt it? And it's not you trying to figure out how to code that, that kind of falls away, but it's like, how can you construct the environment here with a paint brush or just like a world building type thing.

[00:25:38] Erik: But yeah. As a product manager. What I do is work with the developers and the technical folks, and then the front end developers to create a coherent product. But there's also designers. I work with that kind of build what that front piece looks like for people using a product. And I think at some point artists like yourself, aren't going to be like, Do you need to do coding to progress your work, but I wonder at some point, if to give you more control of what you're doing, you're going to want to explore that anyways.

[00:26:12] Erik: And so it'd be kind of an interesting piece and I think it's a good place to explore and to be curious about, but I also think that not every artist is going to need to code in some way or use no code, but it might just be a fun tool for them to up their game, a few steps back. You mentioned some art pieces that really have had such a big impact on you. And I would love to hear,why they had such a big impact and what do you think could be maybe translated into digital or not?

I've got the story that I love telling. It's like one of my favorite, how art impacts the viewer consumer. And I was at a experimental art gallery. I think it was in the Bronx. maybe in 2008. And I walked into a room. It was just a pretty cavernous room. There was no art in the wall, except one piece that was high up on the wall.

[00:27:01] Erik: It was probably 15 feet up and it had a curtain around it. And there is one of those chairs for elderly folks that kind of go up the stairs. And this was like a fairly prestigious gallery and it just had a big red button next to it. And there was a security guard standing next to it. And everyone just was just walking by it.

[00:27:20] Erik: Not paying any mind. And I like what went up to it. And it basically said press the red button. And so I just sat in the chair and press the red button. And then the chair started going up this lift, and it was making like horrible noises. Everyone had stopped to look at me. It was just like one of the more embarrassing parts of my life, because it was just like, I was trying to be like, cool.

[00:27:44] Erik: With it person art gallery. And everyone's dude, what are you doing? you're completely like, this is completely inappropriate. And so I get up and it takes me to this curtain. And like, I literally look in the curtain and I'm not even kidding you. There's people running naked through a corn field.

[00:28:01] Erik: And there was a note from the artist that was like, thank you for trusting me. this is part of the process. Here's a video to reward you for Being a part of the art. And I was just like, I just had this pretty interesting experience with this artist who I'll never meet and I don't know who it is now.

[00:28:18] Erik: And then I basically like noisily went back down and all these people were like, looking at me like, you're an asshole or whatever. And I was like, oh my God, I am the only one that actually experienced this art here. This person had made this piece and I just had this crazy feeling about it.

[00:28:35] Erik: And I don't know if it's from like shame and embarrassment to excitement, to like, you know, interested in what they're creating. And I think that was just one of those moments where I was like, the artists transported me through all these emotions and then like in this roller coaster and when I left, I was eight.

[00:28:51] Erik: I don't think I'll ever forget that for the rest of my life. And I think that's one of those moments. So it wasn't like, changed my political beliefs, but just internally, I was like, Okay.

being accepting or just letting people that's the expert or whatever, like trusting them.

so that was always a fun one. And I'll, I don't think I'll ever forget that I was very unique experience.

Got to love participatory art, right? I do that more experiential art sometimes too, because it just like, kind of sucked into it and it's layered in different ways and it's a lot of fun, but Yeah, I think those are the type of pieces that I think there is a.

[00:29:29] Erik: Digital version of that. And I think it's going to be up these really exciting artists that put together this experience. We walk out and I'm like, oh my God, what does happened? I went through this arc of real human emotions. And I'm going to be just thinking about this and how it impacts my life for awhile.

[00:29:45] Erik: And I think that's where art's really fun for me And that's not the goal of every artist and every piece doesn't have to do that either. but I want to think about like really leveraging all these tools that might exist in the digital world. I think artists are gonna. Really have a, explosion of irrelevance and not that artists haven't been relevant, but just a really fun place in that space that I'm really excited about.

[00:30:10] Erik: if y'all want to find me on LinkedIn , um, I think I'm the only Eric Huckle, HTC, KLA, and sometimes post some stuff on medium. I cover a lot of different things from space to the NFTs thing you talked about. blockchain. So I always love when folks reach out and comment or just have questions about it.

[00:30:29] Erik: And I love trying to explain it. So I'd love to see any types of participation would be great.

[00:30:34] Isotta: Thank you. For listening to art is season two, episode three. The mission of this podcast has been to encourage early career creatives, art students, and emerging artists to seek out possible futures for the art world. One where our creative ambitions and professional needs are met. This monumental, but essential task will only progress effectively.

[00:30:54] Isotta: If we look to strategies and innovations from beyond our comfort zone, only one. When we look outside of the traditional art world and start breaking down barriers between creative disciplines, will we start building a better, more inclusive industry? This was the first in a series of conversations with business and tech leaders.

[00:31:10] Isotta: So I'd like to thank Eric Huckle for broadening our horizons today and providing a much needed perspective into the complex realm of tech and business and how it can impact us as artists.

[00:31:20] Isotta: I look forward to sharing the next episode in the series with you. So remember to subscribe to art is, and when you have a moment, please leave a rating and review it helps others find the show I get to make art is freely and independently because of your support without anyone telling me what to do or to say, I make it because I too, I'm an emerging artist and care about the future of our industry and want to work to make it better.

[00:31:43] Isotta: So if you want to support what I do here at the show, you can donate through the link in the episode description. Thanks. I really appreciate it. Before you go. I also wanted to mention the art is bookshop created through bookshop.org. An online platform built to financially support local independent bookstores.

[00:32:00] Isotta: It's important to me that this podcast is a resource for you. So I've carefully curated a selection of books for your continued professional and personal development you can find links for both us and UK bookshops. In the episode description and on the artist's Instagram and Twitter at art is podcast by purchasing books.

[00:32:17] Isotta: Through these links, you'll be supporting independent bookstores and this podcast. Thanks and see you soon.